1986 deckel fp3nc/dialog 4: Power/start-up issue

[WazMan]

Hello PM'ers.
I'm 2nd owner of a 1986 DECKEL FP3NC w/DIALOG4 and know it's history as the original owner was my employer and I had used this machine when it was new. Other than a known "bad monitor" the machine would power up and all basic jogs functions were operational. The machine has been sitting without power for more than 7 years and I am now trying to bring it back on line. Other than a few lit LED's (see photos), the fan in the controller, and the table lamp - the machine is lifeless. As for power in: I am "not" using a convertor, just a straight utility hookup. Through the advise of knowledgeable members of this forum, I located and replaced the 3 sets of batteries but with no change. I've also checked the fuses that I've come across, but I can't say all of them because I am unaware of all their locations. [Note: Tool change pendant "is" connected to plug near X axis servo motor and all "E-Stops" are off.]
I've been advised to very carefully start checking transformer inputs and outputs (i.e.- Main step up, T1, T2, and T3), and upon doing so have found a few under voltages and will define the readings in a future post however I just made a few physical observations I feel may be relevant:
Upon switching main power on large cabinet to "On" position (-), I hear a click and found only one of five of what the manual calls "contactors" labeled "22E"AEG-SHO4, to have it's red switch positioned to the left (see photo). Is that the only one turning on? Upon depressing an emergency stop or cabinet switch to Off (O), the red switch returns to the right.
The second and more curious thing I found with the help of a friend with good hearing, was a high pitch squeal or hissing noise coming from the control cabinet. I liken it to the sound an oily air hose with a small crack in it would make. I was able to isolate the sound and it is definitely coming from the board marked: "VG13 NSV" and more specifically a small square (1 1/2" or so) copper wire wound, coil looking piece soldered to the board (see photo). I've never encountered anything like it before. Can't be good thing, right?

Thank you all in advance, I appreciate any and all feedback.
Regards, Adam [aka:WazMan]

p.s.-(props to Ross, Steve, & Rich)

 

[AlfaGTA]

Picture of your NSV board shown above ( power supply ) indicates that it is bad.....There are 4 fuses on that board..two in the black fuse holders and two clipped to the board (open)
the open ones are spares...but be sure the fuses in the black carriers Ohm good.

All LED's should be lit with main power on.....
See this post:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-upgrade-281504/?highlight=Power+supply+board

Alan is a good guy and very reliable...has done work for me in the past....
Cheers Ross

 

[rklopp]

The second and more curious thing I found with the help of a friend with good hearing, was a high pitch squeal or hissing noise coming from the control cabinet. I liken it to the sound an oily air hose with a small crack in it would make. I was able to isolate the sound and it is definitely coming from the board marked: "VG13 NSV" and more specifically a small square (1 1/2" or so) copper wire wound, coil looking piece soldered to the board (see photo). I've never encountered anything like it before. Can't be good thing, right?

I get a "hiss" from the console, which I associate with the monitor CRT electronics. It's the sound old CRT TVs made. My monitor takes 15 minutes to warm up properly and be steady. Before then, it's brightness comes and goes, but it is relatively legible if I crank the brightness. It's been that way now for at least 11 years.

As for the failure to start, all I can say is start checking power source voltages and tracing power from its source to its end. Are you saying you can't see the screen at all? If not, it might have an error message (like BA 00) that explains everything, but you cannot see it.

 

[Colt45]

FWIW, I get the noticable hiss on one of my FP4NCs even though the CRT is long gone. I think that's a sign the NSV board is on its way out. Could be mistaken, but I think the hiss/singing comes from a switch mode power supply on the board.

Might try connecting a TV to the BNC connector under the console.

My observation over the years is that all the Deckel boards are pretty reliable, but the NSV is the least reliable of the lot. It's not unusual for them to need rebuild every 15-20 years or so. Fortunately, it is probably the easiest and most economical to repair. Be extra careful around that board with the top of the console off--it's very easy to short components and kill the board. Looks like you got a nice machine, will be well worth the effort to get it running.

 

[ewlsey]

The hissing sounds is from the transformer of a switch mode power supply. Either the oscillator circuit is faulty, or the power supply is in an idle mode an has reduced its frequency to an audible level.

The boards with rows of 8 LEDs probably indicate some kind of binary number as a status output. I would think the manual would explain the function.

Many things are pointing to a bad low voltage power supply (it probably makes multiple voltages, like 5V, 12V, 24V, etc). The good news is that they can almost always be repaired.

 

[AlfaGTA]

The boards with rows of 8 LEDs probably indicate some kind of binary number as a status output. I would think the manual would explain the function.

.

There are 6 LED's on that board...The 4 clustered together have their voltage labels printed on the board ....They ALL should be on, .Repair the board, then look for the next issue.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers Ross

 

[ewlsey]

It appears the 5V output is working because the logic boards are powered up. But, all of the voltages needed are likely made in the power supply.

90% of the time the electrolytic capacitors develop high ESR and either stop the power supply from working or move it so far out of spec that it's essentially not working. The other 10% of the time you have a real mess with blow diodes and transistors. From the link it appears that these have a problem with the output filter coil. I'm not sure why, those coils are basically just some wire and ferrite.

 

[Colt45]

The 22E contactors should be labeled K8-K18 (or similar).
They control various functions of the machine, like coolant, hydraulic pump, etc, so not all of them will necessarily click on at startup.

The contactor you hear click on start up is likely the 24 volt control circuit/emergency stop chain and possibly the only one that should be activating at that time.

Check all the "Q" (likely Q2-Q8) and "F" (typically F1-F9) breakers/contactors, especially F9, make sure they are not tripped.

The (3) red emergency stop buttons must be "out" in order to energize the machine.

Keep in mind, every FPNC machine is a bit unique, so the Q, F, and K numbers above may not be exact for your machine-just check all of yours. Get the orange electrical print book for your machine, if at all possible.

 

[WazMan]

I get a "hiss" from the console, which I associate with the monitor CRT electronics. It's the sound old CRT TVs made. My monitor takes 15 minutes to warm up properly and be steady. Before then, it's brightness comes and goes, but it is relatively legible if I crank the brightness. It's been that way now for at least 11 years.

As for the failure to start, all I can say is start checking power source voltages and tracing power from its source to its end. Are you saying you can't see the screen at all? If not, it might have an error message (like BA 00) that explains everything, but you cannot see it.

The hissing sound is definitely coming from the coil on the NSV board. The monitor was deemed bad years before I purchased the machine. The company that owned it before me hired technicians to fix it, but after messing with it for some time they said it couldn't be repaired and basically left it disconnected or disassembled.

Regards, Adam

 

[WazMan]

Picture of your NSV board shown above ( power supply ) indicates that it is bad.....There are 4 fuses on that board..two in the black fuse holders and two clipped to the board (open)
the open ones are spares...but be sure the fuses in the black carriers Ohm good.

All LED's should be lit with main power on.....
See this post:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-upgrade-281504/?highlight=Power+supply+board

Alan is a good guy and very reliable...has done work for me in the past....
Cheers Ross

Thank you for the information. I didn't know about those fuses - will check today. Might there be other fuses elsewhere - say large cabinet - that I don't know about?
Regards, Adam

 

[AlfaGTA]

Indeed there are more fuses on logic boards...All will be in the same sort of black plastic fuse holders as on that NSV board.

Look in the large green cabinet at the boards that comprise the "PC" (box with the clear plastic cover.....where all the LED are)
Cheers Ross

 

[WazMan]

FWIW, I get the noticable hiss on one of my FP4NCs even though the CRT is long gone. I think that's a sign the NSV board is on its way out. Could be mistaken, but I think the hiss/singing comes from a switch mode power supply on the board.

Might try connecting a TV to the BNC connector under the console.

My observation over the years is that all the Deckel boards are pretty reliable, but the NSV is the least reliable of the lot. It's not unusual for them to need rebuild every 15-20 years or so. Fortunately, it is probably the easiest and most economical to repair. Be extra careful around that board with the top of the console off--it's very easy to short components and kill the board. Looks like you got a nice machine, will be well worth the effort to get it running.

Thank you for the information. It appears the general consensus is that the NVS board is bad. Good to know it's repairable. I'll look for the BNC connector today - how difficult (and how) is it to hook up a TV to it and would I see anything on it while the NSV board's 4 LEDs are not showing power while the main power switch is on?
Regards, Adam

 

[ewlsey]

Your CRT probably requires 12VDC to power on. If the power supply is not creating that, you have no video. I guess the CRT could have it's own power supply, but I doubt it.

 

[AlfaGTA]

CRT is indeed powered from the NSV board.....
Do yourself a favor, look into a replacement solid state screen (LCD) ....number of folks make retrofit screens that fit the original enclosure....
Big up side beside reliability is that the internal temp of the control will drop significantly....which is good for extending the life of the components within....
Cheers Ross

 

[WazMan]

It appears the 5V output is working because the logic boards are powered up. But, all of the voltages needed are likely made in the power supply.

90% of the time the electrolytic capacitors develop high ESR and either stop the power supply from working or move it so far out of spec that it's essentially not working. The other 10% of the time you have a real mess with blow diodes and transistors. From the link it appears that these have a problem with the output filter coil. I'm not sure why, those coils are basically just some wire and ferrite.

Thank you for the feedback.
I'm a novice when it comes to the technical side of electrical components, their definitions (i.e.-what is ESR?), how they function and effect other components, but I read a post recently that mentioned that there are 3 red capacitors somewhere that often need replacing. Could these be the ones you speak of and could you direct me to their location? Also do you think it is something a novice could replace?

Regards Adam a.k.a.WazMan

 

[ewlsey]

Your board appears to have really old school capacitors that fit into a socket of some kind. You'll have to go around that to use modern aluminum electrolytic caps. Also, you have to get the polarity right.

ESR is equivalent series resistance. Capacitors are typically used to filter out ripples in voltage. Over time electrolytic caps degrade and build up resistance to electrical signals with ripples (basically AC). This high resistance can cause the circuit to malfunction.

From my experience, bad caps is much less of an issue with CNC control than in something like a TV or PC. CNC machines use really high quality components that are stable for a long time. Consumer electronics are built with cheap Taiwan and China caps that fail quickly.

 

[AlfaGTA]

More to that board than just caps.....From your statements don't see this as a DYI job for you...Need to test all the outputs in loaded condition...difficult to do in the machine.

The orange book has the circuit diagram for this card, but all the prints i have seen have illegible sections...I know for example that Alan spent quite some time reverse engineering the board in order to
repair, then test the end result.
In addition, there are also several modifications that make the board more reliable, which are not covered in the prints.....

If you know someone who can read and understand the print for that board....get them to help you....Otherwise there is someone who has already worked all this out and has done several successful
repairs to these boards.....

Exchange replacement from the usual suspects of a repaired board will run anywhere from $700.00 up....Unless the core board has been monkeyed with.....(traces damaged)
Think Alan gets approx $300.00 for his repair, including the upgrade mods.

Be sure to check the fuses first....But in my experience if you have blown fuses on the NSV most likely the board is the problem.
Repair the board, then trouble shoot the monitor.....Seems that they are not the strongest part of the control hardware.....Do some searching of this and other forums...running the control off a TV might present issues.
The video scan rate of the control output is quite low and many modern displays just will not work.....

Cheers Ross

 

[deckeldoctor]

wazman

Pic 1 where is the remote tool change box and do you have it plugged in under the X axis motor?

I see you have the hand wheel mounted on the front of the machine, it should be plugged in under the bottom of the operators console.

Pic 3 the PLC is sending info to operators console indicated by the "S" on the second board NPP90. The "E" led is not on meaning there is a problem in the operators console.

Pic 4 only 1 led on the NSV power supply is on. If at any time some one working on the CRT had the metal frame of the CRT touching the heat sink on the NSV Board the board has been short circuited!! The control will power up with out having a CRT or screen. Remove the crt completly from the console since it does not work. Then see if any more leds come "on" on the NSV power supply. There is small circuit board mounted within the crt remove it from the crt by squeezing the tabs on the 4 standoffs and unplug the crt from this board. Leave the small board connect BUT make sure it CANNOT touch any metal or circuit boards to short circuit anything.

What is the serial number from the left side fiberglass cover on the machine 2803-xxxx ? I may have worked on that machine sometime in the past.

Regards
DD

 

[DeadMahoDude]

NSV board has obviously missing output, as indicated by the LEDs on top.

It's fairly easy to check, if you have a couple of load resistors, a couple of power supplies, a voltmeter and an oscilloscope. It will work (or work not) if powered by 24V power supply outside of the Dialog enclosure, hook some load resistors onto the outputs (white connector on bottom), put 24V from power supply onto the green power connector on top and measure the voltages on the output. It's a simple PWM controlled switcher PSU, running at 20kHz or so. The TL494 chip is readily available (costs like 20cts or so) so it's hard to screw up repairs. And check the black fuses before starting any repair.

Only nasty thing for first timers in repairing these NSV cards is that the case of these big silvery brown capacitors is used as a bridge/jumper between different PCB traces. So you need to connect negative terminals of capacitors if you bodge in like 3 standard capacitors. Be happy that it's only a electronic fault, much more fun/easier to repair than the galled ways in my FP2-NC

Here is a pic of my test setup when I checked my NSV board, HP E3616 is used to feed 25V onto input, HP-3456As read +5V and +15V on output, big resistors on heat sink are used as load resistors on output.
DSC 154 — imgbb.com

In case NSV works fine, it might also be possible that you have a short on the rest of the Dialog 4. In that case, pull cards until short disappears.

 

[AlfaGTA]

Dead:
Indeed...the link you posted sure looks like a beginners initial "kit"..a setup most "first timers" would surly have access to .
Think its all a matter of perspective...Personally i would much rather deal with curing damaged ways than chasing electrons about....Pick yer poison!

Cheers Ross