44,000 Euro for an FP1 in Germany now.....

[Monarchist]

If I ever get out to the states to purchase a pacemaker or whatever I will have to pay 10% import duty then 20% vat on the combined purchase price and import duty ..so the tax is taxed.
I can claim the vat back if I purchase via my business but then its not mine in effect

That will probably be much the same for UK-sourced goods - or EU goods into UK - once Brexit is all said and done. Politcal "efforts' and promises aside, "sweeter" deals seem less and less likely.

No change to the above for US, Asian , or other non-EU sources AFAIK for either UK or EU.

 

[AlfaGTA]

Is that lever under the handwheel for the Y how the power works for the head/y-axis?

Yep, same as the FP2 and FP3 which has had that feature since their initial production....(Circa...1960 or so)

As to the DC drives..agree that they are nice for dialing in feeds, but less nice in the rapid mode....Rather have the lever with a real clutch that one can modulate to make position moves....Lever even has a position where the feed is disengaged so you can stop the feed , rapid or engage the selected rate...all off the one rapid lever.
Cheers Ross

 

[Milacron]

Not disputing you, but was just pointing out that you did post an ebay auction, albeit BIN.

Yeah I know, you're always on the lookout for a "gotcha"....but that's a pretty desperate one.

Is that lever under the handwheel for the Y how the power works for the head/y-axis?

Yep

 

[Milacron]

As to the DC drives..agree that they are nice for dialing in feeds, but less nice in the rapid mode....Rather have the lever with a real clutch that one can modulate to make position moves....

For that situation I just use the axis feed speed pot turned all the way clockwise for "rapid" rather than pushing the rapid button. Not quite as "rapid" as the push button rapid, but rapid enough.

 

[Peter from Holland]

As to the circuit board aspect, the only complex electronics is the DC drive, which in theory could be replaced with a new DC drive of another make as long as the voltage matched. But easier to just buy a working one from Singer. I've never had one go bad..

Wel I had my fair share of bad DC drives
First I had them fixed by a electronic repair shop But I dont work anymore with that shop
So I found out the OEM for the drives still makes replacement boards
They also repair their old boards
In general a repair costs about €250 And a new one less as €600 So much cheaper as Singer
I suspect Singer has his boards repaired there too
Here is their pricelist for new replacement boards
http://www.unitek-online.de/pdf/download/Allgemeines/E-Preise.pdf
Here is their "about us" page
http://www.unitek-online.de/en/ueber_uns.html

Peter

 

[Kees]

Yes, Franz's work is expensive

I disagree.
Expensive means to me asking a price way higher then what it acctually had costed.
Now let assume to overhaul the FP3 takes 500 hours of labour at 50 euro makes 25K. 5K for the machine itself and 5K for parts. Making 35K which is roughly the price Franz asks for the Deckel. He will make a profit of course but I think this kind of work will not make you extremly rich.
So expensive, no. A lot of money, yes.

Maybe the real question is why would someone spend this ammount of money on a manual Deckel ? ( instead for example a used CNC )

 

[traditional-tools]

Yep, same as the FP2 and FP3 which has had that feature since their initial production....(Circa...1960 or so)

I didn't know that, but looking at images in google, I see that on them now. Thanks for pointing that out.

For me, it seems that most everything is pointing to the FP2 for my next machine. If by some reason you did decide that you needed the room, you know where you can sell yours!

I don't expect you to be getting rid of it, just chiding you... (and it still makes more sense for me to pursue the shop before more machines...(then why am I going to look at a small surface grinder tomorrow ??? I guess cause it's cheap... If I find a simularly cheap FP2 I'll be all over it...)

 

[ballen]

Hi Kees,

Expensive means to me asking a price way higher then what it actually cost.

Yeah, I see your point. And I agree that with your definition of expensive, Franz's rebuilt machines are NOT expensive.

My definition of expensive is different than yours, for me it's whatever is more than I am typically carrying around in my wallet. So by my definition, Franz's machines ARE expensive.

Cheers,
Bruce

 

[Charles_nl]

My definition of expensive is different than yours, for me it's whatever is more than I am typically carrying around in my wallet. So by my definition, Franz's machines ARE expensive.

Hmm, thus a new Rolls-Royce for 50000 euro is expensive?

Charles

 

[AlfaGTA]

Hi Kees,


My definition of expensive is different than yours, for me it's whatever is more than I am typically carrying around in my wallet. So by my definition, Franz's machines ARE expensive.

Cheers,
Bruce

So if you happened to trip over an absolutely original Ferrari GTO, for example, and the owner was asking , say...500,000 Euro...you would consider that expensive, yes?

I think expensive is a relative value, not to be confused with "can't afford" . Now i can't afford the car in the above example, but i do consider the price a bargain....(not expensive)
Cheers Ross

 

[kustomizingkid]

I would say for what went into it the asking price is reasonable, in no way does it take away the sticker shock though.

What does Babin get for a totally done up HLVH?

http://www.babinmachine.com/index.php?TML5CEN

 

[Milacron]

Seems a bit silly to be arguing about what "expensive" means as language evolves and it can mean slightly different things to different people. To me it just means "a lot of money".....regardless of whether the "a lot" is justified or not. But to others it apparently means "beyond what is justified" Plus as Ross mentions, it is relative to your financial status as well. To Paul Allen, $500,000 is probably not "a lot of money"

 

[IanX]

If I ever get out to the states to purchase a pacemaker or whatever I will have to pay 10% import duty then 20% vat on the combined purchase price and import duty ..so the tax is taxed.
I can claim the vat back if I purchase via my business but then its not mine in effect

God forbid your business hits rocky times. The insolvency practitioner pointing to the book entry for the purchase and comparing it to the visual audit.

 

[IanX]

This gets to the point for me. Having a man stand by a machine for eight hours per day year on year. I saw an Anilem equipped BP glorified drill in a suburban basement a few days back, the old guy who owned it had churned out industrial models for years and put a very nice roof over his head.
I saw a mid 90's Kitamura Mycenter 3x with conveyor and Nikken rotary table at auction last year. One of the defunct companies employees was there to bid on it and said it was a well looked after machine. He won the lot for £8200 plus auction fees plus tax.
A manual mill with better paint than a hand built sports car would compliment the owners Bugatti vice.

 

[Erik]

Yep, same as the FP2 and FP3 which has had that feature since their initial production....(Circa...1960 or so)

Hi Ross.

AFAIR, the FP2 arrived on the scene ca. 1952 with SK40 and rapid feeds on 3 axes, didn't it?

Cheers
Erik

 

[AlfaGTA]

Erik:
Not sure on the date of issue for the first FP2's. But believe as you that from the start all had 3 axis feeds with rapids, along with the #40 taper spindles....Plus all are needle roller spindles and
not to mention that they all have a horizontal quill and higher top spindle speed.

Cheers Ross

 

[lucky7]

I have literature from 1954 mentioning FP2's. So would be pre that date. Papers also showed FP2E, which I've never seen. I'd guess cheaper than reg FP2 as had no horizontal quill.

L7

 

[AlfaGTA]

Papers also showed FP2E, which I've never seen.

L7

Wonder if that machine was actually built? Would not be the first sales department offering from Deckel complete with specs and art work that never saw the light of day.
Cheers Ross

 

[sneebot]

Yes, they were built...

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...bene-mills/fp2e-110376/?highlight=deckel+fp2E

and:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...mills/ebay-fp2e-109550/?highlight=deckel+fp2E

and yet further:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...tion-fp2-series-109897/?highlight=deckel+fp2E

 

[AlfaGTA]

Matt:
Nice catch as usual...I even posted on the FP2E years back...truly don't remember that at all.....
Cheers Ross