60's model 10EE knob and handle plating

[charlieman22]

Gents,
Am aware there has been considerable discussion on materials/finishes related to the knobs and handles of the 10EE.
'Lot of them focused on the round dial as opposed to the square.
Struggling to find specifics regarding my 1960 model SD.

It's handles and knobs appear to be painted - or plated - I'm unclear...
The "coating" what ever it is, is probably familiar to many.
It is that flat silver color.
I believe it was used to avoid reflection off the dials - but was also used on bezels, and handles.

The underlying materials vary.
Levers appear to be steel - highly magnetic
Knobs appear to have low magnetic attraction - material uncertain.

I want to avoid just polishing the finish off when cleaning/restoring.
Trying to determine whether it's a plating or a paint.
In some places it's worn, it appears to me to have a copper colored underlayment.
That suggests plating to me.
In other areas, it appears to be on top of chrome.

Can anyone shed some light/ educate me?




Below an example of chromed steel, with the paint or plating then layered on top.

 

[m-lud]

I'm not particularly fond of what I call the dull pebble finish on some of the knobs. The handles appear to be chrome polished on the ************************.
I think the dials dull finish may be some sort of chrome, then gas or acid etch process.
Your assessment of the metal materials seems correct. The round dome faced knobs may be a low steel alloy but not brittle like a pot metal.

edit:
The old chrome process had copper plating first.

 

[gustafson]

The finish of plating only shows what is underneath. If you chrome a matt surface you get matt finish. chrome a polished surface....
If you hold a SS bolt next to a surface and the surface looks blue, pretty much chrome. If it looks yellow, nickel. zinc looks zincy

 

[texasgeartrain]

I would guess a chrome finish of some sort on dials originally.

I love the look of chrome or highly polished white metal. However its tough on the eyes during use. Overhead shop lights usually put a glare right at 12 oclock where the zero marker is, making numbers and marks a little more difficult to read. Where matt finish and maybe black numbers is easier on the eyes.

I noticed older versions of Starrett mics and such were high polished type, very pretty, but harder to read. The generations after were matt finish and more visible.

 

[charlieman22]

If you chrome a matt surface you get matt finish. chrome a polished surface....
If you hold a SS bolt next to a surface and the surface looks blue, pretty much chrome. If it looks yellow, nickel. zinc looks zincy

Never heard that.
Helpful.
Thanks.

I’m guessing they used some Passivated method to get the flat finish.

It seems super smooth, yet flat. Maybe thin for paint.

M-L & TexasGT - I also like the polished chrome look - but I’m torn about getting rid of (what’s left) of the flat finish that’s on them.


I posted to see if there was some specifics that were “general knowledge” of others but unknown to me, regarding these.

“Son, u just polished off the super special plating that can’t ever be reproduced and everyone wants…” sort of thing.

Thanks to all for weighing in.

 

[Steve in SoCal]

I think the matte finish is or was vapor blasted chrome

 

[charlieman22]

I think the matte finish is or was vapor blasted chrome

Well - That makes things interesting.
Is that ringing bells for anyone else?

I’ve got mixed emotions about the finishes - for many of the reasons sated by others.
The chrome/ polish has appeal.
I mean - it’s shinny!

At the same time I’m reticent to strip existing for fear it will loose some of its precision high end feel/ suspect the mat in nice condition would also appeal.

Perhaps some experimentation is in order.
Thanks for weighing in.

 

[m-lud]

I think the matte finish is or was vapor blasted chrome

Now that is what I remember reading somewhere. I said gas treatment but that wasn't right. Curios about the abrasive media

 

[Mr_CNC_guy]

Why not call it patina? That makes it more valuable!

 

[Steve in SoCal]

To add,

The matte chrome finish on the dials is I think, hard chrome not decorative or 'triple chrome plate. The same process that is used on measuring tools like mic barrels etc. The mil thickness may impact the dial when replated? Triple chrome is copper, nickel then, chrome.

 

[Mebfab]

Dull one is a process called satin chrome plating

Satin Chrome Plating | Master Finish Company - MasterFinish

Master Finish Company satin chrome plating offers light to dark satin chrome finishes for automotive, plumbing, hardware and more

masterfinishco.com

 

[Scottl]

Show chrome is done using first copper, then a thin strike of nickel followed by chrome. The copper is heavily plated and then buffed to eliminate grinding scratches and small pits. At a former employer we had one of those ubiquitous Taiwan 12 x 36 lathes where the thin chrome on the handwheels had worn enough to expose the copper in sections. Not a great lathe but good for quick stuff when the "real" lathes were in use.

I believe the satin finish on the dials may be satin nickel rather than chrome. I believe it is done by glass beading then plating.

 

[m-lud]

Off topic a bit. Food for thought

In another life 40 years ago, I spent about 8 years in Rotogravure Printing. The guys that engrave the cylinders could give you shiny chrome with detailed engraved gradients. The depth of engraving is controlled by the time spent in the acid bath.
This may not work for reworking a dial, although they did rework our engraved cylinders.
I have seen the etching process, but I was a printer.

This is just a thought of using a different process for a dial.
It is definitely precise enough for a dial although there may be another reason it's not done on dials,

The mask was a tarlike compound to protect the copper for etching the pattern then its chromed.
I printed hundreds of thousands of miles of woodgrains for Formica countertops.

rotogravure+printing+cylinder+engraving (link didnt work)


This photo is of engraved full and halftones, but we did have deep line engravings.


This may not be economically feasible for old Monarch lathes.
There is more than one way.

 

[daryl bane]

The issue I had when contemplating my dial restoration was...who could do it ? In the end, I just made new dials out of S/S and bead blasted the non polished bits.Micro-Gaging Dial resto. Pt.2

 

[charlieman22]

All. Much appreciate the dialog.
Exactly what I was looking for.
Partly to understand what the knowledge base is, partly to ponder my own desired outcome.

Daryl, I’ve seen the dials project. Gorgeous in their own right.

As others noted: more then one way to skim the cat.

I’m not certain if my preference is more for the chrome polished look or the mat look - or some combination.

Comments have kinda enticed me to consider a little experimentation.
Will post some results here when I tackle.

Thanks for the insights/ opinions.
Helpful.

 

[dgfoster]

OP, Have you checked with Monarch?
They are still in Sidney,OH so far as I know. They have been good about answering questions for me in the past.
937-492-4111

Denis

 

[AlfaGTA]

I would consider electroless nickel for the knobs.
Cheers Ross

 

[car2]

"satin chrome" plating is done with a small amount or chrome over satin nickel plating. Most chrome-plating is very thin (as in less than 50 millionths). On brass alloys and steels, first a fair amount of copper, then nickel, then a thin layer of chrome. The copper and nickel serve as diffusion barriers and levelers and corrosion protection. The new "satin" nickel finishes are done with the plating chemistry which produces microscopic pits, but older satin parts may use mechanical finishing of the substrate and/or plating.

Chrome is expensive versus copper and nickel, but somewhat more durable and different color (more white in matte finish), in fact in your picture looks like where the chrome layer is worn off exposing the "nickel" color of the nickel underplating, there's likely copper under the nickel) . And there's also the "nickel allergy" thing. I'd guess the dial bodies are brass if non-magnetic.

Satin electroless nickel (versus electroplated) is also available, which is also used on guns and such. Electroless plating does not have the charge-density problem like electroplating, so plates evenly on complex parts and inside surfaces. Heat-treatable electroless nickel-phos is probably the most widely used engineering plating for wear and corrosion resistance (electroless platings cannot be built up indefinitely like electroplating, so a few ten-thousandths is max).

 

[GT6_Racer]

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I talked to these guys about replating the dials from my Monarch series 60. They can do the job. when I had the lathe apart their line was down for maintenance, haven’t gotten back to getting the dials done yet. Satin hard chrome as original. All the other knobs and levers on my Monarchs are nickel plated. You can tell by the color.

 

[charlieman22]

OP, Have you checked with Monarch?
They are still in Sidney,OH so far as I know. They have been good about answering questions for me in the past.
937-492-4111

Denis

Denis - good thought.
Not yet.
Suspected that this might fall into the “knowns” bucket of community knowledge.
Was surprised by the breadth and width of the responses.

I would consider electroless nickel for the knobs.
Cheers Ross

Thanks Ross. Was there a specific reason you like this as a solution?

in fact in your picture looks like where the chrome layer is worn off exposing the "nickel" color of the nickel underplating, there's likely copper under the nickel

Agreed. In fact - on all satin worn surfaces there is evidence of copper at the edge of the wear.
Thanks for the background and info.

Indiana Hard Chrome Plating | R&S Plating

R&S Plating is the leading Indiana Hard Chrome Plating expert with more than 70 years in the business. From zinc, cadmium and copper plating, we can help!

rsplating.com

I talked to these guys about replating the dials from my Monarch series 60. They can do the job. when I had the lathe apart their line was down for maintenance, haven’t gotten back to getting the dials done yet. Satin hard chrome as original. All the other knobs and levers on my Monarchs are nickel plated. You can tell by the color.

GT6 (Triumph?)
Appreciate that lead.
Terrific.

Generally: got much more back in this topic than I anticipated.
Good wealth of knowledge.
Will update here when I determine my final direction.

Welcome the pros/cons/ solutions provided.