A Bearing Fit Question

[99Panhard]

Forget the Lisle. You can send me the bearings if you like and I can hone them.

Thanks very much...I appreciate the thought but I took this on to see if I could do it. Who knows if I'll live long enough to finish. It's more the challenge than the finished product that drives me.

 

[99Panhard]

I have the Lisle hones and they've always worked well for me. It's difficult to get over both the Sunnen and Lisle hones looking more like something that Sears would sell than a precision tool that would let you take off the tenth of your choice.

That said... I've tried to hone surfaces (like a bearing race) that are shorter than the stones. I find it difficult to feed the hone in straight enough, plus maybe the stones wear a little bit concave, and I wind up with a very slightly convex surface. Is there a trick to honing a short ID or is this why the rod honing machines exist?

These are good thoughts...I'm of a mind to make up a holding fixture and do 2 bearings at a time. The fixture would, perhaps, separate the two bearings an inch or so so you'd get a much "deeper" hole to work with. I was also thinking of maybe doing it in the drill press with the fixture attached to the table.

This project has been going on for 10 years and is nowhere near completed. I work on it almost every day but I'm both slow and learning as I go (having no prior metal working experience). I'll bet at least half that time was spent fixing the machines and making mistakes. Then there are the jobs that take a week to make the fixtures and an hour to do the job. No one could make a living doing it this way...

 

[99Panhard]

Sounds good. Hone will arrive in a longish tube since it has a longish "drive shaft"

54 E. School St still works?

Yes...

54 East School St., Woonsocket, RI 02895

 

[Spruewell]

What are the numbers on the bearings? (Cups and cones) I have an interchange book that shows dimensions and styles for the thousands of various bearings and their respective manufacturers. There may very well be a bearing available that will fit that thing without all the agony and risk of modifying your bearing or spindle.

 

[99Panhard]

Thanks...the original bearings have no numbers. They aren't anything like the conventional tapered roller bearing we are familiar with. The cone and cup are separate pieces with balls held in a cage. I'll take a picture of one and post it. In any case, I've been using the Timken catalog for dimensions and then looking for that number bearing. The bearing that goes in this sot has nominal measurements of 2.5 ID, 4.75 OD about 1.1 thick. This is only the first one pair too...I have 3 more to do.

 

[jim rozen]

Thanks...the original bearings have no numbers. They aren't anything like the conventional tapered roller bearing we are familiar with. The cone and cup are separate pieces with balls held in a cage. I'll take a picture of one and post it. In any case, I've been using the Timken catalog for dimensions and then looking for that number bearing. The bearing that goes in this sot has nominal measurements of 2.5 ID, 4.75 OD about 1.1 thick. This is only the first one pair too...I have 3 more to do.

The really old ones don't even have a cage. My vintage motorbikes were built with similar bearings for the steering head, with no cage. The impact loads would invariably dimple the races and create uncertain handling at the best of times. Forturnately as everything was metric-designed, it's easy to retrofit with tapered roller bearings, direct fit.

 

[rons]

I'd like to use the bearings below...but, being modern the ID is a real 2.5". My question is...does anyone have an idea how I can reduce the OD of the bearing seat by .002? I was thinking of making a fixture to hold a piece of abrasive material - maybe 120 grit - that would clamp onto the seat and could be tightened gradually. It would work but might take a long time to remove that much material... So I thought I'd ask the experts before doing anything.

Meaning that the difference in fit would be .001. In my electric motor fun experiences the number is .0005.
For me that .001 difference makes me want to heat the bearing, freeze the shaft, and then use a press to get it installed.

 

[99Panhard]

The really old ones don't even have a cage. My vintage motorbikes were built with similar bearings for the steering head, with no cage. The impact loads would invariably dimple the races and create uncertain handling at the best of times. Forturnately as everything was metric-designed, it's easy to retrofit with tapered roller bearings, direct fit.

Yes, my bikes as well. I have to admit I never thought of putting a tapered roller bearing in there but now that you mention it, I'll measure it and see if I can do it...I have a 441 BSA apart in the cellar right now.

 

[99Panhard]

Here's the original bearing. As you can see, the inner race is wrecked. All of the bearings were like this.

 

[John Garner]

This is a good time to again mention an important "rule of thumb" for fitting rolling-element bearings: The bearing race that is fixed with respect to the applied load should have a close-clearance fit, while the bearing race that rotates with respect to the applied load should have an interference or adhesive fit.

 

[EmGo]

The really old ones don't even have a cage. My vintage motorbikes were built with similar bearings for the steering head, with no cage. The impact loads would invariably dimple the races and create uncertain handling at the best of times.

R69US ? I made 100 of those once. Unfortunately the heat treater did not achieve the required hardness, so my parts were no better than stock.

It's easy to hate heat treaters

 

[jim rozen]

R69US ?...

R60US /2, and a non /2 R50. The tapered roller bearing retrofit is typically one of the first things to do when one buys one of these.

 

[johnoder]

Joe: Tracking on that is 9534 6120 2608 1365 6938 83

Its coming with the too large stones to show you how they go together

A fairly recent catalog is here

https://www.sunnen.com/userfiles/resources/brochures/Portable_Hones.pdf

starting on page 7

 

[99Panhard]

Thanks John...I'll post some pictures of the project as it goes forward.

 

[99Panhard]

John's suggestion that I hone the bearings, and his kind loan of the hone, worked a charm. I set it up in the drill press...taking heed of the warning that it was difficult to hone a short surface. Notice also that I didn't use the guides...I misunderstood the directions. This is my 2nd or 3rd setup. Finding a way to hold the inner race secure and allowing for the hone to pass through was a challenge. I had intended to use the 3-jaw chuck I use on my rotary table but it turned out that it wouldn't open enough to grab the inner race securely. I chipped the stones when I started but since the area being honed is about 1" I was able to get away with using them.






Needless to say, the second one went much faster.



Thanks again John. It's all wrapped up and I'll take it to the Post Office on Monday.

 

[johnoder]

Great! Old man Mitchell is smiling down

 

[john.k]

Ford invented a form of roller bearing in which the rollers were made of spiral wound square steel......the flexibility of the rollers prevented spot loading and bearing failure that had plagued long rollers used in car rear axles......A lot of pre WW1 cars were made of poor materials ,like axle bevels made of carburized low carbon steel.

 

[99Panhard]

That's a Hyatt bearing. Ford used them but I doubt they invented them. They aren't very good and are best replaced with modern roller bearings where it's possible. My car had them in the rear axle or either side of the differential. In practice they often galled the shaft they ran on. I've seen an axle shaft worn 1/4" deep. In some cases, a hardened sleeve was pressed onto the shaft. This was better, but they were still very "loose" by any realistic standard.

The SAE specs for materials were fairly specific and well thought out before WWI. I generally use PM Heldt's 2-volume manual on automobile design (1912 edition) as a guide. When I first read it, I was surprised at how advanced the engineering data was. When inferior materials were used, it was only to save money...they understood very well what the best available was.

 

[vonleyser]

Thanks very much...I appreciate the thought but I took this on to see if I could do it. Who knows if I'll live long enough to finish. It's more the challenge than the finished product that drives me.

I like this part, I am also driven when people tell me You can't do this or you can't do that. Been living in a new house for a year now that the county said I couldn't build, and know I'll never finish, a BIG FINGER to the Waller County Engineering Department for lying.

May your project run smoother than many of mine

 

[ratbldr427]

A little late but I have a Lisle,Sunnen and an Ammco. So if you are looking to buy a used one any will work. The Ammco is better than the Lisle as good or better than the Sunnen. Sunnen has the best selection of stones.

Using your drill press is a good idea. Best to hone some tubing or some bored mild steel the same id as the bearings to brake them in before honing the bearings and use honing oil.