A Scraping Newbie Has The First Of Many Questions

[jwearing]

Still struggling with the blue? Just get some Dykem Hi-Spot Blue and get on with life. It works great, cheap, and available everywhere. Currently $13 from Amazon.

I really hate the idea of using Dykem and putting up with the mess.

I think the mess is exaggerated, it's really not that bad. The stains on your hands will be gone after a day or so. It will stain pink granite, but the stain does fade over time. The only big problem I've had is that it will stain painted surfaces, I haven't found a solvent that removes the blue without damaging the paint. Scrape before painting.

 

[JST]

At this point I feel stymied by the issues I'm having with the ink that I am using. It dries way too fast to be usable. Not totally dry, but dry enough that it is incredibly viscous, like the stuff that makes old syrup bottle caps hard to remove. I can't seem to get a clear impression from it no matter how I try to thin it, roll it or whatever. I can get a smeary blob impression (per the previously posted pics) or a very faint ghost of blue that is little help. I plan to contact the dealer that I bought the Charbonnel Aqua Wash from Monday. Hopefully they have an answer. On a positive note, I have scraped a Brown and Sharpe indicator base top and bottom to within +/- .0001" by coating the entire part with ink and scraping the shiny spots that were revealed after rubbing on a dry surface plate. I don't know how to check points per square inch at the moment, but maybe when I get the ink problem sorted out I will be able to.

Ugh............... I was hoping the Charbonnel was going to be "the stuff". What you are saying is very similar to what I have found and described with the Canode. It's not "unusable", I did a whole small knee mill with it, and the result was good. I find it just a lot of trouble, and I find myself cleaning it off and re-applying it a lot, in order to have a usable refernce marking layer.

It looks like I am going to have to go back to the "Smurf" HiSpot blue material.

What I tried with the Canode included the recommended Windex, and also propylene glycol based antifreeze, which would be water-based, but also slower to evaporate.

I apparently do not have Mr King's technique with the Windex, and that was only partly effective for me.

The propylene glycol was successful in remaining longer without evaporating. Unfortunately, it also contributed to smearing, making it not very useful overall.

"Liquid" materials which will thin the Canode (and, it seems, the Charbonnel), seem to make it too thin and contribute to smearing. There may be a magic ratio, but that ratio is very hard to hit.

In fact, there IS a "magic window" of time in which the Canode is actually quite decent. Apparently just enough water has evaporated. Before and after that magic window, the properties are not as good. I was trying to hit that "window" with a material that would not evaporate quickly, and would at least extend the window to cover several spottings. So far, no joy.

What is needed is something with more the consistency of grease, along with slow evaporation, and compatibility with water. I have not found that material yet, and it may not exist.

The grease type material that is the carrier in HiSpot blue has nearly ideal characteristics in every way. HiSpot is ideal in every way other than cleanup. The very finely divided pigment is able to stain anything, and is very resistant to cleaning.

 

[M Kiser]

I have chart I will try to attach here. I sell a DVD on scraping and I'll give you a deal on it any members who want to buy one. MK message me your email or phone number and I'll call you and try to tell you how. Sometimes it's easier to hear how then to read how. What is the temperature of the room your scraping in? A cold room will screw up how it spreads. Are you using 2 colors? Last week one of my students used to work for Ingersoll the new machine dealer and he introduced me to a red powder you mix with oil and lacquer thinner and make a paste. I am going to order some and test it and if it works good, I'll share the results. I have a couple of cases of Canode blue and yellow.
Contacting the Charbonnel distributer won't help any as it wasn't designed to use as bearing blue. It's aan ink and it is suppose to dry. You have to mix it with Canode to make it work. If you want the best buy some Dykem high spot bluing in a tube. But be prepared for stained fingers

I have tried to add the chart but it says to large a file. I'll do it tomorrow . I'm to tired to do it now.

I already have the video. It and the Connelly book were the first things that I bought. The shop temp is about 65 degrees. Cardinal Red and Prussian Blue are the colors I am using. I did not realize that the Charbonnel needed to be mixed with Canode. Is Canode even available anymore? This could be the root of my problem. I will PM you with my cell # soon. Thanks so much for your help!

 

[Bakafish]

I already have the video. It and the Connelly book were the first things that I bought. The shop temp is about 65 degrees. Cardinal Red and Prussian Blue are the colors I am using. I did not realize that the Charbonnel needed to be mixed with Canode. Is Canode even available anymore? This could be the root of my problem. I will PM you with my cell # soon. Thanks so much for your help!

Canode is not made anymore, it is possible there is old stock somewhere, but it isn't going to be easy to find and it isn't a long term solution. I think the reason this mix he describes is working, is that the additives in the Canode to keep it from drying are similarly affecting the new ink. It is those ingredients that you really are looking for, and again I suspect that artists use similar additives to delay paint drying for certain applications. That or some seran wrap placed over the inked surface to keep it from drying out between prints...

 

[Richard King]

Here is what I wrote to MK today. I added some more info about cleaning the surface plate.

The Charbonnel is too thick to use alone. Have been reading up on someone who used linseed oil to thin it. I'm going to experiment with that. I also just ordered some Stuarts Engineering bluing from eBay. I believe Tyrone used it for years. I have a case of Canode but I won't sell any. I mix the Charbonnel with Canode and it works OK, not perfect. I called ITW who makes Dykem and asked if they had water-based ink and they said no.

One of my students last week showed me some pigment he mixed up to use as a highlighter. Charbonnel works well as a Highlighter. I use red mixed with Windex. I do not dilute the Charbonnel blue with Windex.

Highlighter is the color you put on your part and wipe 99% of it off with a rag. It sets in the porous iron to dull the shine of the iron. We used to use Red-lead, but it was banned by OSHA as people were getting lead poisoning.

Until we figure out a better water-soluble ink or recipe I would suggest you use Dykem or some Stuarts. It sells for around $6.00 a tin on eBay. I bought 4 as the postage was the same for 1 or 4.

You need to buy a Control gauge from DAPRA that has a 1 x 1" square hole in it or scribe lines on some plexiglass. If you make one out of plex-e-glass scribe lines 1/4" apart both ways like graph paper and then count the high spots in each ¼ inch square. only count if they are bigger the a * . If they touch they are counted as 1. Attached are some pages out of my class manual. Take a look at it and call me...651-338-8141 if you have questions. I would sell you one of my DVD's for a deal
I also added some surface plates we used yellow Canode and red Chrbonnel high-lighter before bluing. You have to wipe it dry or it smears the part. Also, buy a hard rubber brayer to spread the bluing thinner and even on the plate. you need to be able to see through the bluing to get the right thickness. Or Transparent. I only squirt a little Windex on blue when its over 90 F degree's. I normally wipe it off every 12 th blue up as it gets dirt in it from the air. Or during classes students don't wipe the part and blued plate with their hand to feel the dirt. I always wipe it off before lunch and at the end of the day. Next time you see sunshine shining through a windo look at all the dust floating in it. That falls on the plate in your shop, so you have to clean off the ink a lot.

You should come to one of my classes this summer and I'd teach you to scrape.
Pic's L - R Cardinal red highlighter under Blue Canode and Canode mix, Canode yellow under blue Canode and Charbonnel Prussian blue, Blue Charbonnel and Blue Canode on plate with different size brayers on surface plate and PPI chart. The 3rd row is what we want. 20 PPI for most machines and 30 to 40 PPI for surface plates; When you rub your angle plate on the bluing count to ten. Rub it a lot, not 1 swish shish and pick it up..

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[M Kiser]

Here is what I wrote to MK today.
Here is what I wrote via email today. I added some more info about cleaning the surface plate.

The Charbonnel is too thick to use alone. Have been reading up on someone who used linseed oil to thin it. I'm going to experiment with that. I also just ordered some Stuerts Engineering bluing from eBay. I believe Tyrone used it for years. I have a case of Canode but I won't sell any. I mix the Charbonnel with Canode and it works OK, not perfect. I called ITW who makes Dykem and asked if they had water-based ink and they said no.

One of my students last week showed me some pigment he mixed up to use as a highlighter. Charbonnel works well as a Highlighter. I use red mixed with Windex. I do not dilute the Charbonnel blue with Windex.

Highlighter is the color you put on your part and wipe 99% of it off with a rag. It sets in the porous iron to dull the shine of the iron. We used to use Red-lead, but it was banned by OSHA as people were getting lead poisoning.

Until we figure out a better water-soluble ink or recipe I would suggest you use Dykem or some Stuarts. It sells for around $6.00 a tin on eBay. I bought 4 as the postage was the same for 1 or 4.

You need to buy a Control gauge from DAPRA that has a 1 x 1" square hole in it or scribe lines on some plexiglass. If you make one out of plex-e-glass scribe lines 1/4" apart both ways like graph paper and then count the high spots in each ¼ inch square. only count if they are bigger the a * . If they touch they are counted as 1. Attached are some pages out of my class manual. Take a look at it and call me...651-338-8141 if you have questions. I would sell you one of my DVD's for a deal
I also added some surface plates we used yellow Canode and red Chrbonnel high-lighter before bluing. You have to wipe it dry or it smears the part. Also, buy a hard rubber brayer to spread the bluing thinner and even on the plate. you need to be able to see through the bluing to get the right thickness. Or Transparent. I only squirt a little Windex on blue when its over 90 F degree's. I normally wipe it off every 12 th blue up as it gets dirt in it from the air. Or during classes students don't wipe the part and blued plate with their hand to feel the dirt. I always wipe it off before lunch and at the end of the day. Next time you see sunshine shining through a windo look at all the dust floating in it. That falls on the plate in your shop, so you have to clean off the ink a lot.

You should come to one of my classes this summer and I'd teach you to scrape.
Pic's L - R Cardinal red highlighter under Blue Canode and Canode mix, Canode yellow under blue Canode and Charbonnel prussian blue, Blue Carbonel and Blue Canode on plate with different size brayers on surface plate and PPI chart. The 3rd row is what we want. 20 PPI for most machines and 30 to 40 PPI for surface plates

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Thanks again for the info, Richard. I plan to try Dykem soon so I will know what it acts like. I just tried a mix of Charbonnel blue and glycerine and the result was encouraging, though the blue was a bit faint. More tomorrow.

 

[Richard King]

If you have my DVD then you saw how top put on the yellow highlighter, Did you buy some Yellow or Red Charbonnel? You can't leave it wet or sticky. After you wipe off the Windex diluted highlighter, wipe 99% of it off with a dry rag. Then wipe it off with a dry ungloved hand to feel the dirt and possible burrs you may have not stoned off. I also now know how you learned to shine it up as I am the only one teaching that for years. Be sure to have a sharp blade. with a 60 mm radius or 40 and a negative rake of 5 degs -also shown on my DVD /HSB stick,on a 600 grit or 1200 grit diamond wheel.

 

[JST]

Ah, I had not thought of glycerine. That might be a good material for a trial.

I wish in a way that I had never heard of Canode. I'd still be using HiSpot, and I'd be "blue but happy"..........

 

[Richard King]

I introduced Charbonnel to the forum scraping world after Tom Lipton of You Tube fame under his company name Ox tool. He took one of my CA classes and he introduced me to it. His wife is an artist and paints. He saw her using it and tried it. He used it straight, but that's to sticking in my opinion. I squirt some Canode on the granite plate on a section like you put paint in a paint pan. Then dab 4 to 6 touches out of the end of the Charbonnel tube and use a soft foam roller first to spread it evenly mixed together, then use a hard rubber brayer to spread it thinner and more even.

 

[M Kiser]

Yesterday I tried several mixtures of Blue Charbonnel Aqua Wash thinned with glycerin and then several with boiled linseed oil. I used boiled because I didn't have raw, which is much slower drying. Raw linseed oil is AKA flaxseed oil. The final print of the series was unthinned DyKem. No scraping was done between prints. I am going to try to put all seven of the pictures on this post with the proportions and type of thinner used. All mixtures were applied with a cloth pad and rubbed until I saw what looked like proper transparency. My hard brayer is now hourglass shaped and useless. Apparently the wooden core has absorbed water from the multiple cleanings it has seen.

Any comments and tips from you experienced folks out there would be most appreciated!

The first image is 1 gram of ink and .3 gram of glycerine. It was very sticky and I did not slide it much at all. Maybe 1/16" or so.

Image 2 is 1 gram and .5 gram. Still sticky but less so. Again, minimal sliding.

Image 3 is .7 g and .7 g. It felt oily.

Image 4 is .6 g blue with .6 g linseed oil. Oily at first, then sticky as the film got thinner.

Image 5 is .6 g blue with .3 g linseed oil. Sticky. Minimal sliding was done.

Image 6 1.0 g blue with .3 g linseed oil. Sticky. Minimal sliding.

Image 7 is from using an old tube of DyKem. The part slid freely and wasn't sticky. I could actually hinge the part while it was on the ink.

 

[M Kiser]

I've learned quite a bit about scraping from Richard's video, the Connelly book, Youtube and members of this forum. However, there are still some gaps that I can't seem to close. In my mind, the scraping process is as follows:

1. Machine surface if needed.
2. Rough scrape entire surface and take a print.
3. Scrape away blue areas using a continuous circular motion and reprint.
4. Repeat until the distribution of blue is fairly uniform across the surface.
5. Scrape in a cris cross pattern until the blue distribution is further improved.
6. Establish the desired PPI and bearing percentage.
A big problem for me is the transition from 5 to 6. The attached pic shows my latest scraping thru step 5. I'm not understanding what is needed to complete step 6. In the videos I've watched it seems like the areas of low point density from step 5 are magically transformed into higher density in step 6. What am I not getting here?

 

[Richard King]

When a student I'm standing behind can't get more points then 20 PPI. I tell them they need to be a sniper shooting one shot at a time at the target. Not machine gunning it. Most time people scrape the diagonal line scraping high and low spots and expect the PPI to get better. In the class I specify the term as a combination of a "dive bomb" which in the DAPRA book calls Technique 40 and a combination of the crosses you did to get it to where yours is now. It sure is easier to show you then write it.
Also one thing I use as an analogy is when your driving down the road and you brake you gradually press on the brake. The same goes for scraping, you stroke length starts at 3/8" long and as you get more PPI you shorten the stroke 1/4 turn of the power scraper or hand scraper. You never need to scrape less then 1/16. If your push hand scraping I tell the students to pull the scraper into your body and push with your body. That's why I have a rubber sanding disk crewed to the end of my scraper handle, to spread out the pressure. Also you raise the back of the scraper up about 1" then normal so your blade radius gets thinner and the scrape mark gets narrower.

One needs to also rub the part that plate to polish the higher points. The higher points will polish of the bluing and change colors. I have been telling students lately to rub the part to a count of 10. Not one push and walk away. The lowest of the high spots is the same color of the blue on the plate. The second highest or say .00005" higher the point gets black or dark grey and the highest say .0001:higher is polished and the high spot gets shiny like a mirror. When you want more PPI you have to only scrape the black and shinny ones and leave the same color ones alone.

Also I make the students memorize the 5 "King-Way Rules of Scraping". That you use to get more then 10 PPI.
1. Scrape individual scrape marks - meaning push forward and cut a low spot and as you slide the scraper blade back move sideways to get a gap and no scrape, then push forward and get another scrape or low spot. Use this the across the whole width of the part. AT 45 Degree or diagonal to the length of the part. If you don't separate the scrape marks you dig a hole where next time you blue up no blue. The next scrape after you blue up is at 90 egrees to the last one to get a checkerboard look.
2. Scrape individual lines of scraping marks (number 1) separate the next line by approx 1/8". If you let the 2nd line touch the first line. If you don't separate you will get long vertical openings or holes next time you blue up.
3. Check the depth of the scrape mark. Put a .00005" or .0001" indicator on a height gage and set the the gage on the part (not on a surface plate next to the part) and move the stem of the indicator from a low spot and measure the height of the high or blue spot. Minimum of .0002"and a Max of .001" - average .0004 to ,0005".
4. When you rub the part on the plate 10 seconds then pivot or hinge the part it should rotate at 30% from the ends. That's when it's flat.
5. Clean the part and plate before you rub with your hand and fingers as you can feel the dirt with a bar hand.

Once you Practice and Practice more and more and follow the above you will get more points.

Also as you shorten the stroke you put in a new sharp blade with a rounder tip radius. To get 40 PPI sharpen the tip to a 40mm to a 20mm tip radius.

 

[Richard King]

If you would like to learn with me standing behind you I am about to post my spring and summer class schedule here in Minnesota. I would be willing to travel to someone's shop to teach a class. It is harder for me to travel now that I'm OLD ..lol, but would.

 

[CarbideBob]

T'is art work...practice, practice, practice and then......
You only learn by doing it wrong and trying again, again, and again. At some point and with brutal advice it just clicks. The ah-ha moment.
To someone like Mr King it is like falling off a log and I'm sure he could do it in his sleep.
My biggest early problem was getting too aggressive and then the whole darn thing has to come down to match.
(2 cents worth from the peanut galley)

 

[Richard King]

Having the right tools and not trying to re-invent the wheel is the key. So many think they have a new way, but I tried many of there "new ways" when I was a rookie 55 yrs ago. The other thread the OP is using a Tube type Anderson hand scraper that I have seen used, They are horrible in my opinion. I used an Anderson when I was a kid. I also made one out of a file. It was worse then the Anderson. Anderson does have an OK model Its the 1" wide x 15" with the clamp that slides. As you said "Practice Makes Perfect" lots of practice. It helps a lot having someone showing you too.

 

[Richard King]

I've learned quite a bit about scraping from Richard's video, the Connelly book, Youtube and members of this forum. However, there are still some gaps that I can't seem to close. In my mind, the scraping process is as follows:

1. Machine surface if needed.
2. Rough scrape entire surface and take a print.
3. Scrape away blue areas using a continuous circular motion and reprint.
4. Repeat until the distribution of blue is fairly uniform across the surface.
5. Scrape in a cris cross pattern until the blue distribution is further improved.
6. Establish the desired PPI and bearing percentage.
A big problem for me is the transition from 5 to 6. The attached pic shows my latest scraping thru step 5. I'm not understanding what is needed to complete step 6. In the videos I've watched it seems like the areas of low point density from step 5 are magically transformed into higher density in step 6. What am I not getting here?

Your part looks a bit high in the middle. The bottom side more then the top one. You need a smaller stone too. People should check the stone as many are not flat unless you bought some ground stones. The Norton MS-24 tapered slip stone that I buy buy the case, most are not flat. I can lay them on a plate and they spin like a top. One needs to just stone light enough to remove the burr and not the high spots. It's as important as scraping. Precision stoning. Knowing how hard to stone is also a lost art. Also hand heat can change the pivot point too. Set the part on the plate or straightedge on the plate and hinge it, mark where it hinges or pivots on both side. then hold your hands in the middle for 2 minutes and hinge it again. Last week we did that and the students were shocked at how the hinge spots changed.

PS. I think I mixed you up on the stone with the other thread that's scraping the compound....lol

 

[Bakafish]

One needs to also rub the part that plate to polish the higher points. The higher points will polish of the bluing and change colors. I have been telling students lately to rub the part to a count of 10. Not one push and walk away. The lowest of the high spots is the same color of the blue on the plate. The second highest or say .00005" higher the point gets black or dark grey and the highest say .0001:higher is polished and the high spot gets shiny like a mirror. When you want more PPI you have to only scrape the black and shinny ones and leave the same color ones alone.

I think these points Mr. King makes are really important. Once you have the inking figured out (and the DyKem looked best IMHO) you need to account for the film thickness and very small differences between the low and high spots when you are at 10-20 ppi² as just a few scrapes on the highest points will make larger changes in the bearing than you might expect. The shiny spots with rings of displaced ink buildup around them are your targets, but they are going to be small. You may want to just improve your lighting, use some cheater glasses/magnification and use a single thin marking layer to really get close to the metal.

I'd also suspect that having a really consistent reference surface is going to be key to really being able to get that 40 ppi², otherwise you may end up chasing imperfections in that that are just getting transferred to your work. I got a new Japanese granite plate (300x450) for a few hundred bucks that is certified to within fractions of a micron. It is a confidence builder to have a reference you can be sure is telling you the truth.

 

[M Kiser]

Your part looks a bit high in the middle. The bottom side more then the top one. You need a smaller stone too. People should check the stone as many are not flat unless you bought some ground stones. The Norton MS-24 tapered slip stone that I buy buy the case, most are not flat. I can lay them on a plate and they spin like a top. One needs to just stone light enough to remove the burr and not the high spots. It's as important as scraping. Precision stoning. Knowing how hard to stone is also a lost art. Also hand heat can change the pivot point too. Set the part on the plate or straightedge on the plate and hinge it, mark where it hinges or pivots on both side. then hold your hands in the middle for 2 minutes and hinge it again. Last week we did that and the students were shocked at how the hinge spots changed.

PS. I think I mixed you up on the stone with the other thread that's scraping the compound....lol

I already stumbled onto the hand heat issue. Pretty amazing! I let it sit a few minutes and all was good again.

 

[M Kiser]

When a student I'm standing behind can't get more points then 20 PPI. I tell them they need to be a sniper shooting one shot at a time at the target. Not machine gunning it. Most time people scrape the diagonal line scraping high and low spots and expect the PPI to get better. In the class I specify the term as a combination of a "dive bomb" which in the DAPRA book calls Technique 40 and a combination of the crosses you did to get it to where yours is now. It sure is easier to show you then write it.
Also one thing I use as an analogy is when your driving down the road and you brake you gradually press on the brake. The same goes for scraping, you stroke length starts at 3/8" long and as you get more PPI you shorten the stroke 1/4 turn of the power scraper or hand scraper. You never need to scrape less then 1/16. If your push hand scraping I tell the students to pull the scraper into your body and push with your body. That's why I have a rubber sanding disk crewed to the end of my scraper handle, to spread out the pressure. Also you raise the back of the scraper up about 1" then normal so your blade radius gets thinner and the scrape mark gets narrower.

One needs to also rub the part that plate to polish the higher points. The higher points will polish of the bluing and change colors. I have been telling students lately to rub the part to a count of 10. Not one push and walk away. The lowest of the high spots is the same color of the blue on the plate. The second highest or say .00005" higher the point gets black or dark grey and the highest say .0001:higher is polished and the high spot gets shiny like a mirror. When you want more PPI you have to only scrape the black and shinny ones and leave the same color ones alone.

Also I make the students memorize the 5 "King-Way Rules of Scraping". That you use to get more then 10 PPI.
1. Scrape individual scrape marks - meaning push forward and cut a low spot and as you slide the scraper blade back move sideways to get a gap and no scrape, then push forward and get another scrape or low spot. Use this the across the whole width of the part. AT 45 Degree or diagonal to the length of the part. If you don't separate the scrape marks you dig a hole where next time you blue up no blue. The next scrape after you blue up is at 90 egrees to the last one to get a checkerboard look.
2. Scrape individual lines of scraping marks (number 1) separate the next line by approx 1/8". If you let the 2nd line touch the first line. If you don't separate you will get long vertical openings or holes next time you blue up.
3. Check the depth of the scrape mark. Put a .00005" or .0001" indicator on a height gage and set the the gage on the part (not on a surface plate next to the part) and move the stem of the indicator from a low spot and measure the height of the high or blue spot. Minimum of .0002"and a Max of .001" - average .0004 to ,0005".
4. When you rub the part on the plate 10 seconds then pivot or hinge the part it should rotate at 30% from the ends. That's when it's flat.
5. Clean the part and plate before you rub with your hand and fingers as you can feel the dirt with a bar hand.

Once you Practice and Practice more and more and follow the above you will get more points.

Also as you shorten the stroke you put in a new sharp blade with a rounder tip radius. To get 40 PPI sharpen the tip to a 40mm to a 20mm tip radius.

Thanks for all of this info! It makes lots of sense and I hope to try it tomorrow or Friday. Pics of the results will be posted!

 

[M Kiser]

Still struggling with the blue? Just get some Dykem Hi-Spot Blue and get on with life. It works great, cheap, and available everywhere. Currently $13 from Amazon.


I think the mess is exaggerated, it's really not that bad. The stains on your hands will be gone after a day or so. It will stain pink granite, but the stain does fade over time. The only big problem I've had is that it will stain painted surfaces, I haven't found a solvent that removes the blue without damaging the paint. Scrape before painting.

Been using the DyKem and you are right. Not a huge mess after all. And the performance seems to be better.