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Accuracy of Brother W1000Xd2

My guess is that it's not one tank + conveyor for the two machines because it looks like the tank ends before it goes past the Feedio:
View attachment 443207

I've been told that one conveyor can dump into the next one over to have a chain ending in a container. Maybe that's this setup, or the other conveyor discharges out the other side?

I've also been told that a tank could be built for two machines right next to each other but it gets cumbersome with moving the tank for cleaning. I'd have to think with the Feedio in the middle that one tank for the two would be extreme.
These were separate units so you still have access to the Flex system. These have the 500 liter sump. 380 liter also available.20240522_110421_resized.jpg
Here is three S700 machines with conveyors dumping into the next machine:
S700 machines with CleanSweep conveyors.jpg



We have also done one tank and one (long conveyor) behind two S500s (or U500s) to save space and some cost:
conveyor for two S500s.JPG
 
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@gkoenig
with as many of these spindles (U500) you have out there, what automation setups have you seen being used? I am guessing that the table can be outfitted with either hydraulic or air for clamping. Are some picking and loading raw stock or is a pallet type system with Schunk or Lang style more common? Are people loading through the side door or front door? (probably yes to both, tho loading from the side would be preferred for visibility reasons)
Are there any "off the shelf/plug and play" integration suppliers for automation?

Seems to me that this style of machine begs to be automated somehow.
 
@gkoenig
with as many of these spindles (U500) you have out there, what automation setups have you seen being used? I am guessing that the table can be outfitted with either hydraulic or air for clamping. Are some picking and loading raw stock or is a pallet type system with Schunk or Lang style more common? Are people loading through the side door or front door? (probably yes to both, tho loading from the side would be preferred for visibility reasons)
Are there any "off the shelf/plug and play" integration suppliers for automation?

Seems to me that this style of machine begs to be automated somehow.

Nearly all of them are running some form of automation; but most of my customers in this region who were early U500 adopters also do their own in-house automation. 90% of them ones we've sold here have a UR robot feeding them parts right now.

Air on the table is easy/cheap with a 2 of 4 port DSTI rotary union and a couple of easily fabricated parts. Hydraulics are rare around here (everyone is running Schunk KSPs), but Brother has a field-installed 4 port air/hydraulic rotary union.

For parts, it's 50/50 side or front load. One holdup has been the Erowa pallet changer is unable to address the table over the trunnion with all but the smallest pallets. Erowa has been asked to make a joint on the arm to solve that, but I think they are refusing to do so for now. Yamazen will have our new Flex Pallet system on display at IMTS with a 6 axis robot that can side load 2 U500s and our new HMI for very tight integration of pallets and program control with the machine - call a pallet and if there is not enough tool life on the machine, it'll alarm out or run the first ready pallet that it can get through. On a single machine, it is 50 pallets that fit in a 150mm cube envelope. On a dual machine setup, you lose the side wall with pallet storage so the capacity goes down to 25. The system is flexible and can run Schunk, Lang, 5th Axis or Erowa pallets (the shelves are customizable for both the pallet system and to scale pallet size).

As far as any other options, Brother's strategy has been to make the D00 control very easy to integrate with, and the feedback I've gotten from everyone is that connecting these machines to any automation setup is dead simple. You have full access to the control over Ethernet, as well as OPC-UA and MQTT onboard.
 
Yamazen will have our new Flex Pallet system on display at IMTS with a 6 axis robot that can side load 2 U500s and our new HMI for very tight integration of pallets and program control with the machine - call a pallet and if there is not enough tool life on the machine, it'll alarm out or run the first ready pallet that it can get through. On a single machine, it is 50 pallets that fit in a 150mm cube envelope. On a dual machine setup, you lose the side wall with pallet storage so the capacity goes down to 25. The system is flexible and can run Schunk, Lang, 5th Axis or Erowa pallets (the shelves are customizable for both the pallet system and to scale pallet size).
That's going to be an awesome setup. You are going to sell a mountain of them. Hopefully I can see it in person this year.
 
@gkoenig for the Brother horizontal model H550xd1, is brother planning to come out with linear pallet pool or rotary pallet pool at any point for that machine? That would add so much more capability to their horizontal model.

Similar to this from DMG Mori: 1718456639859.png

Or perhaps a rotary pallet pool for their vertical pallet changing models?


Also, do they have any 5-axis horizontals planned for the future?
 
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@gkoenig for the Brother horizontal model H550xd1, is brother planning to come out with linear pallet pool or rotary pallet pool at any point for that machine? That would add so much more capability to their horizontal model.

Similar to this from DMG Mori: View attachment 443464

Or perhaps a rotary pallet pool for their vertical pallet changing models?


Also, do they have any 5-axis horizontals planned for the future?
I would be surprised if Brother ever developed a pallet pool. Not in the nature of machines with small tool changers. But they are really good at not telling us stuff. They do know, we have developed the pallet system with our FLEX and I believe there is an option from the European suppliers for a pallet system.
 
@gkoenig for the Brother horizontal model H550xd1, is brother planning to come out with linear pallet pool or rotary pallet pool at any point for that machine? That would add so much more capability to their horizontal model.

Probably not.

The H550 was designed the way it was for a few reasons, and primarily for automotive customers who want the chip control and large part access of a horizontal, in a small footprint, with hydraulic work holding and automation-ready. H550 is half the size of a standard horizontal, so you can pack them in like sardines, with robots in front loading everything. In that environment, a pallet changer really is not buying you much of anything and it makes using hydraulic fixtures a real nightmare (it is possible, but not great).

It was not built for the typical American job shop conception of how we use horizontals.

Erowa now has full Brother control integration, so you could place a couple of H550s in front of their Robod Dynamic system - basically the 3 axis gantry system they use across the lineup, on a rail, pulling from racks of pallets. It is Erowa, so not cheap... but I promise you you could fit 3 H550s + the Erowa RD250 for the cost that DMG would charge you just for a single spindle version of the setup you posted. The last quote I saw for a DMG Horizontal was like $350k. The H550 lists at $160k.
 
$160k for the brother h550? That’s a damn good deal.

I suppose you can get vacuum through center of the pallet for doing vacuum fixture work?
 
$160k for the brother h550? That’s a damn good deal.

I suppose you can get vacuum through center of the pallet for doing vacuum fixture work?

The H550 has a 72mm/2.8" hole through the center of the table and rotary. Vacuum lines tend to be somewhat large with really big rotary unions - but why bother? Just throw an axis limit on the control to prevent a complete rotation and run regular vacuum hose.

72mm is enough to run a single, generous vacuum channel and 3-4 air channels. Start playing with some of the Schunk Vero pallet systems with media passthrough and one could do some wacky intricate work holding tricks... which is kind of the entire point of this machine.

To put a point on what I was saying about automotive buying this as the solution for robot automation of large parts with horizontal cut dynamics - Brother offers hydraulic rotary unions for everything, typically with 4 channels of air/hydraulics, plus a coolant port for fixture washing. The H550 unit? 9 ports!
 
The H550 has a 72mm/2.8" hole through the center of the table and rotary. Vacuum lines tend to be somewhat large with really big rotary unions - but why bother? Just throw an axis limit on the control to prevent a complete rotation and run regular vacuum hose.
Just need a venturi above the table, so a single 1/4" air line will do the trick.
 
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$160k for the brother h550? That’s a damn good deal.
Indeed.

Should be noted that you're paying less because you're getting much less "stuff" than a typical HMC, but for the right application you don't need any of that "stuff" anyway, e.g. 2 pallet changer.

I think it would be cool to run a T200A rotary in that machine for 4+1. Possible, @gkoenig?
 
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I would be surprised if Brother ever developed a pallet pool.
They shouldn't.

I think pallet pools will be replaced with humanoid robots in the near future. It'll just grab a pallet off any rack, table, cart, wood pallet, etc. and throw it on the machine. The pallets could be stored halfway across the shop.
 
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Indeed.

Should be noted that you're paying less because you're getting much less "stuff" than a typical HMC, but for the right application you don't need any of that "stuff" anyway, e.g. 2 pallet changer.

I think it would be cool to run a T200A rotary in that machine for 4+1. Possible, @gkoenig?

100%. I confirmed it with Brother USA myself. The H550 is not offered with the D00v control (the full 5 axis variant), but all the control features are onboard to do 3+2 well are present.

I actually have a rough engineering sketch I built of a bar fed H550 with a T200Ad table, second op Schunk vise, and spindle gripper setup. Bar comes in through the side door, end of it gets clamped in a Schunk on the T200Ad and the trick is you part it off from the bar first thing. Bar retracts and you go to town in 5 axis land. Spindle gripper can grab the part and offload it to a 2nd op vise on the T200Ad table mount.

Trick is the bar feeder. You could probably just use a support table and robot, but you need to be able to retract the bar a little bit. Totally doable.

The result would be a Done In 1 operation machine for mass-scale production of milled parts. Like a Willihmen, but you know... no turning, but also not $750,000. Hard to figure out total cost without knowing how the bar feeding works yet, but the machine, T200A, all the options, two KSP140s is just under $200k list.
 
I seriously looked into the H550 but decided against it for my Application. A Traveling column machining titanium would cause a lot of changes to my programming to achieve the finish I am going for which eliminates the "Benefits" of a Horizontal. Likely add another 500 or grab a 700 next.
 
Hmm... are you limited to one bar at a time?

My big holdup right now is the feeding system - we need a bar feeder that can retract the bar a few inches and take multiple bars. IDK if such a beast exists. Theoretically, with 5-6 4' bars, you are probably walking away for a full day.

Bar feeders are built around having to hold a spinning/whipping piece of stock though, which is where all their complexity is. Since we won't be spinning the bar, we don't have that complexity. We will probably need to fab something, but it won't be very complicated.


I'm partial to the army of robot minions loading sawcut blanks.

For a long time, whenever I got into these debates with customers, I just told them a HydMech H230A horizontal automated band saw is a mere $29k. They are compact, easy to use, low maintenance, elegant and they'll spit out very accurate saw cuts all day long - stop trying to automate from bars and be happy.

And very few of them take my advice!

They don't want another machine, another chunk of floor space, another process to have to handle and another two touches - they just want to throw bars in a thing and have parts come out the other side with the minimal intervention humanly possible. And often times, the margin is such that paying for saw-cut stock from the vendor (or dealing with lead times, or inventory) is best avoided as well.

What the market wants is a Willemin-Macodel that doesn't cost $750k. Look at how many people buy MSY lathes and put up with all their bullshit to automate milled parts. Sure, I've made a decent chunk of money off of those folks who set that up, then find MSY lathes are actually kind of a production nightmare and buy a Speedio, but still - this is kind of an ideal a huge portion of the manufacturing base is trying to get to.

Bar feeding the H550 is a little Rube Goldberg, but I mean - so is a Willemin with the B axis head and the Op2 vise on a rotary trunnion assembly. So are milling tools in an MSY lathe with their delicate drive trains, backlash, and low RPM.
 
I am also starting to shift away from barfeeding. Barfeeding can be insanely productive but have their own complications with larger bars. Running 2-5/8 rnd H-13 12 footers is just a pain in the ass. Hard to get proper chip control with cutting tools on the main spindle because you are limited in rpms ( try running a bar like this over 1000 rpms). If you are front ejecting the remanent it can kill your way covers, and your cut off operation is always the least reliable tool.
 
I am also starting to shift away from barfeeding. Barfeeding can be insanely productive but have their own complications with larger bars. Running 2-5/8 rnd H-13 12 footers is just a pain in the ass. Hard to get proper chip control with cutting tools on the main spindle because you are limited in rpms ( try running a bar like this over 1000 rpms). If you are front ejecting the remanent it can kill your way covers, and your cut off operation is always the least reliable tool.

Bar feeding, as I am proposing it here, has no RPM on the bar. It's literally just getting fed into the face of a Schunk, clamped, then cut off.

The trick is - designing a machine to move around the bar is complicated. That is why all the machines that do it have wacky things like a tiny glass jaw spindle, on a ram, with a rotary axis right behind it, or they have geared motor tool holders.

If you cut the bar off first, in machine, then you don't need wacky kinematics or all the complexity associated with typical "bar fed" machines.
 
You three are all far smarter than me, so there may be an obvious reason to discount this, but why not use the Brother to bar pull the stock?

Spindle gripper to push it into the vise, clamp, cutoff, spindle gripper to push it back out to the edge of travel.

Bar feeder could be as simple as some V rollers with something to provide some resistance or clamping while the machine runs.
 
You three are all far smarter than me, so there may be an obvious reason to discount this, but why not use the Brother to bar pull the stock?

Spindle gripper to push it into the vise, clamp, cutoff, spindle gripper to push it back out to the edge of travel.

Bar feeder could be as simple as some V rollers with something to provide some resistance or clamping while the machine runs.
Not a bad idea. Often you will use a loader to give more unattended run time.
 








 
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