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Acquired Nice Monarch 10EE and Hardinge HLVH; Which one to keep?

car2

Stainless
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Location
Apex, NC
(caution, unintentional long-winded post)
Well, I went to look at a Hardinge HLV-H and Monarch EE that were buried on a CL post for Bridgeports locally. There was a bunch of sheetmental equipment, tooling, couple of bridgeports, saws, etc. I was looking for something a bit heavier than my decked out SouthBend 10K. Turns out that this was the last of the IBM model shop in Research Triangle Park, after several downsizings (people and equipment) and layoffs over several years. I actually used to work at this site and with the shops and people, and bought a Hardinge horizontal mill and bits from one of the previous selloffs (I remember some of the equipment, including that mill, from when I started working there in ~1980 (left in 1996)). The equipment belonged to an IBM business group that was sold to Toshiba, and IBM was leasing the building the shop was in to Toshiba until Oct (so technically the equipment was IBM’s for many years, the Toshiba for the last few); now Toshiba’s lease ran out and they’ve gotten rid of all model-shop capability and people (the beancounters figure they can farm anything out to Timbuktu)—pretty sad, and IBM is probably going to tear down the building (said it was cheaper in taxes and overhead). I was interested because I know that the equipment in these shops is very lightly and sporadically used, maintained well, and not abused. Also, the last handful of people in the shop were laid off in this closing. Well, a local fellow bid on all the equipment and got it and has been selling it off. To make a long story short, I ended up with two very good condition lathes and related tooling. I hadn’t intended on getting two lathes, but the guy really wanted to get things finalized and not deal with more haranguing with buyers. I probably got a decent deal (no steals) on the equipment, and maybe make a few bucks once all is said and done. Anyway, sorry for the longwinded preamble.

Lathes: very good condition HLV-H with taper attachment, accurite DRO, I/M, with rackfull of collets, collet changer, two (IIRC) three-jaw chucks, one 4 jaw, collet stop, manuals, qc toolpost and a few holders, tailstock centers and chucks, 2 faceplate, coolant pump, fluorescent lamp, hardinge rear shield. I didn’t know where to find the SN on these machines, but it’s probably the same or later year (1970’s).

Very good condition Monarch EE (SN 50562, 208/3phase, manufactured 1970). The Monarch is an inch-only threading, taper attachment, original monarch tooling cabinet full of collets (didn’t count them all, probably 50-75 virtually unused) 5c and 2j), collet closer, steady rest, two 3c collet noses, sjogren chuck, qc toolpost and a few holders, apron stops, tailstock chucks and centers, faceplates, misc tooling bits.

They turned off the power in the building before I could actually run the machines, or the machinist take videos. However, the machinist that ran both (I knew him in passing from my previous employment there, an honest guy) of these said they were in perfect running order, with the exception of the Monarch had some intermittent glitch with the backgear interlock switch. Both machines appear to have no perceptible wear on the beds (no ridges, cannot see/feel any changes in the bed near the headstock or tailstock, no scoring at all, apron travel is smooth across bed with lock snugged up, leadscrews are flawless, spindle internally and externally are perfect, no signs of any crashes on the crossfeeds, dials are tight, no scars/dings, scoring on any of the ways. The Hardinge has a few paint chips here and there on top of the tailstock (no exposed metal and original paint) , and normal wear on the pan. The Monarch has most all of the original paint, with a few chips around, and normal paint wear here and there,on the pan and shields over the taper attachment, right around the spindle, etc. No perceptible wear on any the mechancal parts. No painting done on any parts.

I know it was a bit of a risk not running these machines, but knowing where they came from (little use), who was running them, and the actual person that ran them, along with the mechanical condition and tooling basically makes it a tolerable risk

So, I’m cogitating on which one to keep. Basically used for engineering prototyping, automation equipment, gubment projects, tools and fixtures, guitar parts etc. I know that the Monarch is perhaps not quite as user-friendly for certain things as the Hardinge, and has the more quirky drive, but is also a bit more versatile with regard to part size, spindle speed etc. (?) Such a good condition Monarch with tooling may be more “rare” than the Hardinge, but the Hardinge may be more “in demand”. How do people like that Hardinge spindle for chucks and such versus the camlock. The machinst really likes the collet usability on the Hardinge versus the Monarch. Any opinions are welcome, I’m sort of leaning toward keeping the Monarch (I don’t mean to start a Monarch-versus Hardinge war). Attached are some as-is pictures, they’re sort of grimy from oil and dust, been sitting for a few months (forgot my camera and DTI for spindle checkin, these were taken by the sellers). I’ll probably have a Monarch or Hardinge, and a mint-condition 10K with VFD, and about everything cept taper to post for sale in the near future. I’ll figure out a way to get these powered up and running also. I have 3phase, but cramming both those in my shop is an issue, may borrow a friend’s machine shop for one. Thanks for the input and all the great info on the forum—sorry for the longwinded post. Cheers, Charles
 

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xplodee

Hot Rolled
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Location
Allentown, PA
I've never used a 10ee, but everything I know about HLV-H's and love about them from using them versus what I've read about 10ee's makes me say sell the 10ee. Its such an old machine compared to the HLV-H. That's just me though.
 

car2

Stainless
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Location
Apex, NC
Mebfab, thanks. I didn't pay the asking price, and wasn't expecting to flip something for a big profit--just a few bucks and a decent lathe.
 

jariou

Cast Iron
Joined
Jan 20, 2008
Location
Cary, NC
I replied to that Craigslist add last Friday I believe. I was ready to go see the machines. I got some email back saying they could be seen Monday or Tuesday morning. I replied and said I could go if I was told when and where. Did not get a reply after that.

But to answer your question, you should keep the Monarch and sell me the HLV-H. But then you may think that my opinion is biased (it is:D).

I am in Cary, probably jut a few miles from where you are. I would love to go look at the machines either now, i.e. in the coming days, or when you have settled on which you want to keep.

Send me a PM if you don't mind.

Jacques
 

FredC

Titanium
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Location
Dewees Texas
I have only run an HLVH myself, so I can not even suggest which one to keep. If you fix that glitch in the Monarch, then bring them both over here and leave them both for a couple of years, I might be able to give you an honest opinion.
If you are not willing to do that, something I have said on this forum before might apply: You can not have too many lathes.
 

rklopp

Diamond
Joined
Feb 27, 2001
Location
Redwood City, CA USA
The Hardinge has a DRO. Does the 10EE have a DRO on X and a Trav-a-Dial on Z? If so, the Hardinge is better in that aspect. What do you like to use a lathe for? The HLV-H is better if most of your work fits in a 5C collet. The 10EE will handle bigger parts and remove metal faster. If you're not into obsolete electronic puzzles when the 10EE goes tango uniform, that answers the question. The Hardinge has higher resale value.
 

capocoreyollo

Aluminum
Joined
Jul 22, 2015
Id kill for both of them. You have a very tough decision, my friend.I Suppose id say if you want more broad range machine id say Monarch. If you want something faster/easier to use go with the hardinge. I always had a lot fun on the 10EE, but I was always able to get really tight tolerance parts, really quickly on the HLVH. You'll be happy ether way you go, unless of course, you can listen to FredC and keep both. I think you'll be super happy if you could do that.
 

car2

Stainless
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Location
Apex, NC
rk and Fred, thank you. Both have 2-axis accurite DRO's. I don't require large hp work, the Hardinge is probably more "user friendly" without as much capacity/flexiblity. I'll consider your offer Fred. Thanks guys.
 

67Cuda

Banned
Joined
Oct 22, 2008
Location
West Coast, CA
Keep the Hardinge without question. I've ran both and while the Monarch is an accurate lathe, the Hardinge ergonomics make it the clear winner in my book.

Tom
 

Garwood

Diamond
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Location
Oregon
I have a multitude of big lathes and one small hardinge copy turret lathe.

I don't have any desire for a 10EE. I think my Axelson or big Mazak would do anything and way more than a 10EE would. A light, crisp little hardinge is just the ticket for small collet type stuff the bigguns don't shine at. And a 10EE isn't a big lathe. It's little and it'll take material off faster, but if I had one I sure as hell wouldn't rough out steel bars with it. It isn't made for that and heavy use/abuse will just wreck it.

In my world, the metric threading and DRO would seal the deal regardless. Ditch the EE and keep the H.
 

TeachMePlease

Diamond
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
Location
FL
Never run a Monarch, but I use an HLV-H almost every day. I love it. Most of my work is small, and fits a 5C collet, and I rarely take off more than .100/side, so I can't speak to its hogging ability... But if I could pick a lathe to have in my garage, it would be a Hardinge with DRO, no question.
 

WayneC369

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Location
ATL, GA, USA
I hate to break it to you, Brother-man, but you have wasted your money. They're both POS's! I can be there by 5:00 pm today with a forklift and truck and take them away to save you the horrific embarrassment of being seen with them in your shop. But, you need to act now! Also we will rescue that space for you in order to get yourself some good, late model, chinese lathes in there. :D
 

rons

Diamond
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Location
California, USA
The logical thing to do is use them for a few weeks or months and see which one you like better.
I like both of them. Maybe you will too and keep em.
 

PaulM

Stainless
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Location
upton ma
keep em both if you can.

As has been pointed out Hardinge will have a higher resale value.
If you need metric threading right away the I/M HLV is the clear choice coupled with the Hardinge threading capability.

Quirkyness of the monarch modular drive is solvable if there is a real issue via help from the Monarch forum. Also in case you did not know (assuming the drive is original) the Monarch will run happily on single phase - it only uses single phase this is not a compromise. On modular machines the only purpose of 3 phase was to run the coolant pump and it looks like this example may not have one from the panel. I have an EE so am biased in that direction, but realisticly it seems like the decision should be based on your threading needs and or how much you need to recover by selling one of them.

Paul
 








 
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