Advice Needed- First CNC Mill for prototyping and small batch mfg in home shop

[Mtndew]

That said, the pricing is really high for the amount of machine you get.

Exactly. If it were $5k I don't think anyone would say it's a bad value. That's why nearly everyone recommends getting a used Haas or even a used Fadal for your first mill. At least you'll be able to take a halfway decent cut on them.

 

[Chips Everywhere]

With no machining experience, have you considered that you may potentially crash your machine and be out a good amount of change ($5k+) to repair? Not to mention the amount of time it will take you to become proficient at using the machine. Are you aware that prototyping gets expensive because you are doing low volume, so lots of time invested and new tooling is constantly required = $$$$

This sounds like a no brainer to me, but only you know your situation and can answer if getting a VMC is the correct choice for your business. Try avoid being penny wise, pound foolish. Get a Resin or FDM 3D printer to make your prototypes, check that they fit and look like you want them to, then send out out your CAD files to be machined. With a printer you can make a lot of changes quickly and printing is practically free compared to machining.

 

[LOTT]

what kills me about prototyping only is by the time you do the CAD, CAM, fixturing, etc. to make a proper prototype, you've done much of the work you need to do a run of parts, and most of the run can be automated on an appropriate machine.

There's a bigger jump from "one" to "many" than you might think. There are guys that make a living making one offs, and there are other that do nothing but optimize. One offs you throw in a vise, production needs pallets, fixtures, and so on.

The needed support equipment is different also. For a prototype you can buy a foot of aluminum off McMaster and cut it to length on a wood 14" bandsaw. Not so with production, and then you need tumblers, etc.

Automation is a whole 'nother level. Someone else will have to explain that leap for you.

Seems like the general consensus is the TM series isn't a worthwhile investment.

I'm not anti-TM by any mean, I had one (bought used) and it made money. But I paid $15k, ran it for two years, and sold it for $16,500. It's the fact that they want so much for them. If you pick up a used TM for under $20k (which are posted online as we type) it could very well be a good fit for garage prototyping.

 

[Cole2534]

And let's not forget support equipment. To keep a mill running you'll also need a bandsaw, stock/racks and measurement gear. After that you'll find a manual mill and lathe (plus tools) handy to create fixtures or do repairs. Then a TIG because welding is damn sure handy and TIG will do it all with precision.

Tooling and storage for all the drills, end mills, inserts, etc.


I'm not trying to discourage you, just making you aware of what happens between raw stock and a finished part.

 

[wheelieking71]

Glossed through very quickly. Saw just enough to add my opinion.
The best option for you is the smallest Brother Speedio you can find that your parts will fit in.
It needs the least power. It has the smallest footprint. They are crazy reliable. The control is easy to learn.
Yamazen is great when needed. Fusion post is no problem. Will fit under just about any ceiling height.
Spindle replacement is quick & easy, and not crazy $$$ if/when you crash it. With zero experience, you will crash it.
They hold their value very well. Can be had in your budget easily. They are just fantastic machines!

If I was in your position but knew what I know? I would be looking for a 21-tool S300. They are hard to find.
You should be able to find a 21-tool S500 for $60 or less.

Just forget Tormach even exists.

Haas? Meh. That company isn't even a shadow of its former greatness.

Tooling will set you back several $k

I feel a newbie should learn to set-up and operate without probes first!

I am also in the camp of: keep subbing the production out, and use the CNC for product development.
I think buying the machine is a great plan. Both financially, and for business practicality. But, you are in for a long steep learning curve. And, production is nowhere near the bottom.
I have about 30 years total CNC experience. And, production widgets is my niche.
Not bragging at all but: I'm quite proficient at max throughput from minimum man-power, with modest equipment. As mentioned, to do it right (profitably), for a low man-power shop is a bit of an art.
After you have a competent skill-set, start thinking about bringing production in house.

 

[drcoelho]

Yep, Brother Speedio is the way to go. Here's mine squeezing through a VERY low overhang and narrow hallway. Yamazen helped with removal of some options on top of machine to squeeze it through.

 

[wheelieking71]

It is my opinion that unless a guy is just made of money and can build the "garage" around the machine, The S300 speedio is the ultimate garage mill.
If a guy has at least enough dough to pull that off. I hated seeing mine go! I loved that thing!

 

[EmGo]

Brother looks nice ... but out of curiosity I looked around a little, this isn't our field so I'd just walked past these before. 2200 kg weight, 24,000 rpm spindle, 8 tool changer, bt30, double-column style (like a HIllyer), servos not steppers, travels about 8" x 12", 220v or 110v, $15,000 new. No height problem, 1900 mm tall ? what's that in real measurements ?

So as a Certified Cheapskate, I'd consider that as well.

 

[1032screw]

Personally I would invest the money else where and find a local shop that can support the parts you want made. $60k could get a lot of little widgets made at a smallish job shop stateside or overseas. With zero machining experience and an expressed desire to not spend time at the machine you would be setting yourself up for disaster to take on machining. Sure CNC's can run unattended for hours but it takes a lot investment on the front end to make that successful. In my opinion prototyping is one of the harder subsets of the machining trade. If you are making one or ten of something there just aren't very many parts to amortize programming, setup, and tooling costs over. The reality is even simple parts will have 30 minutes of programming and 30 minutes of setup for something that has all of 10 minutes of cycle time. And you can't really walk away from the machine for that 10 minutes of cycle on the first go unless your cost benefit calculation is just way out to lunch. Does not make sense to allow ONE mistake on a toolpath, cutter offset, or fixture offset to scrap your part, blow up a $50 cutter, scrap a $200 tool holder, damage a $600 vise, or wreck a $4000 spindle because you were off doing something else. All of which have a high probability of happening if your aren't experienced and will cost you minutes to days of time.

I have a prototype shop in my garage and consider myself a decent machinist. Been at it full or part time for a solid 13 years in a job shop environment and have been practicing the trade for over 20 years.

For short run stuff my work flow tends to be start programming the part while I wait for the machine to warm up which takes 15-30 minutes. I will probably still be programming when it finished warming. Spend the next hour sawing stock and loading tools even though I try to minimize tool changes in the machine as much as possible. Send the program and hit go at 5-20% rapid to make sure I didn't make any mistakes in my setup. Inspect the first op. Make adjustments because there always seems to be at least one thing that needs doing to make the program run more reliably. Stay at the machine running the next 5 parts inspecting and deburring to make sure I have a stable process. There usually isn't much downtime during this phase since it take time to make sure everything is right and usually can't afford to scrap more than the first 1 or 2 parts due to an oversight let alone all of them. After part 5 I probably have time to walk away from the machine and start programming op2 in 5 minute spurts between loading an unloading. After op1 is done go back to step 3 and repeat the process.

To answer your real question though I would probably be looking for a use Haas or Trak if I were you. Haas due to the number that are out there, ease of use for the control, speed, and relatively low cost. Trak would get my vote since they really cater to making prototypes by reducing programming time and can still be run manual when you just need 30 seconds to square off as piece of stock or something. For a budget of $60k I would plan on spending no more than half of that on a machine and the other stuff on facility and tooling. It is amazing how quickly you can burn up a grand in tooling and not have much in hand to show for it.

 

[EnduroRider]

There's a bigger jump from "one" to "many" than you might think. There are guys that make a living making one offs, and there are other that do nothing but optimize. One offs you throw in a vise, production needs pallets, fixtures, and so on.

The needed support equipment is different also. For a prototype you can buy a foot of aluminum off McMaster and cut it to length on a wood 14" bandsaw. Not so with production, and then you need tumblers, etc.

Automation is a whole 'nother level. Someone else will have to explain that leap for you.



I'm not anti-TM by any mean, I had one (bought used) and it made money. But I paid $15k, ran it for two years, and sold it for $16,500. It's the fact that they want so much for them. If you pick up a used TM for under $20k (which are posted online as we type) it could very well be a good fit for garage prototyping.

I shouldn't have used the word automation. I didn't phrase that correctly, i didn't intend it from a robotics perspective, just from a cycle perspective on the mill itself...ie something with an ATC that can complete a full op without being touched.

To be into a relatively fresh TM with ATC and a few options is well over $20k in the current market. Everything costs a fortune now unfortunately.

And let's not forget support equipment. To keep a mill running you'll also need a bandsaw, stock/racks and measurement gear. After that you'll find a manual mill and lathe (plus tools) handy to create fixtures or do repairs. Then a TIG because welding is damn sure handy and TIG will do it all with precision.

Tooling and storage for all the drills, end mills, inserts, etc.


I'm not trying to discourage you, just making you aware of what happens between raw stock and a finished part.

No way i can fit two mills and a lathe at the moment, that'll have to be on the dream shop list. I have a saw, compressor (and too many air tools), MIG/TIG/Stick, grinders, small welding table and fixturing, etc already so i'm not starting from scratch as far as a shop, but the machining and inspection end of things is from scratch.

With no machining experience, have you considered that you may potentially crash your machine and be out a good amount of change ($5k+) to repair? Not to mention the amount of time it will take you to become proficient at using the machine. Are you aware that prototyping gets expensive because you are doing low volume, so lots of time invested and new tooling is constantly required = $$$$

This sounds like a no brainer to me, but only you know your situation and can answer if getting a VMC is the correct choice for your business. Try avoid being penny wise, pound foolish. Get a Resin or FDM 3D printer to make your prototypes, check that they fit and look like you want them to, then send out out your CAD files to be machined. With a printer you can make a lot of changes quickly and printing is practically free compared to machining.

I will absolutely fuck something up sooner or later. That's a major consideration in deciding how much to spend.

As far as the 3D printing for prototyping, i'm doing that already. It's great for checking fitment, but unfortunately that's all. I have a basic 3D printer so i'm just working with PLA, ABS and TPU. When it comes to most auto or marine products, you can't really test the prototype beyond fit if it can't be put in service, and I can't 3D print something that can take heat, pressure, and load. Turbo system parts, fuel system parts, suspension parts, etc just need to be made of materials i can't print.

Glossed through very quickly. Saw just enough to add my opinion.
The best option for you is the smallest Brother Speedio you can find that your parts will fit in.
It needs the least power. It has the smallest footprint. They are crazy reliable. The control is easy to learn.
Yamazen is great when needed. Fusion post is no problem. Will fit under just about any ceiling height.
Spindle replacement is quick & easy, and not crazy $$$ if/when you crash it. With zero experience, you will crash it.
They hold their value very well. Can be had in your budget easily. They are just fantastic machines!

If I was in your position but knew what I know? I would be looking for a 22tool S300. They are hard to find.
You should be able to find a 22tool S500 for $60 or less.

Just forget Tormach even exists.

Haas? Meh. That company isn't even a shadow of its former greatness.

Tooling will set you back several k$

I feel a newbie should learn to set-up and operate without probes first!

I am also in the camp of: keep subbing the production out, and use the CNC for product development.
I think buying the machine is a great plan. Financially, and practically. But, you are in for a long steep learning curve. And, production is nowhere near the bottom.
I have about 30 years total CNC experience. And, production widgets is my niche.
Not bragging at all but: I'm quite proficient at max throughput from minimum man-power, with modest equipment. As mentioned, to do it right (profitably), for a low man-power shop is a bit of an art.
After you have a competent skill-set, start thinking about brining production in house.

Thanks for this, lot of recommendations for the Speedio. I do know an acquaintance who has one, not sure which model but he did say it was "well over $100k" so that really wasn't something i was considering prior to this thread. He makes a fortune with that machine in a home shop, but he's a skilled machinist so it's a completely different application. Looks like the used ones hold their value well and there aren't a ton of them out there. I'll look more into them and see if anything fits the budget when shipping, rigging, tooling, etc are factored in.

A machine like the Speedio (or anything else at the top of the budget) is tough to justify in my case unless it's for production. Just for prototyping work i think things like an ATC, probes, etc become luxuries and not necessities, but maybe i'm wrong there.

Yep, Brother Speedio is the way to go. Here's mine squeezing through a VERY low overhang and narrow hallway. Yamazen helped with removal of some options on top of machine to squeeze it through.

That's awesome, shoehorned right in there!

It is my opinion that unless a guy is just made of money and can build the "garage" around the machine, The S300 speedio is the ultimate garage mill.
If a guy has at least enough dough to pull that off. I hated seeing mine go! I loved that thing!

Wish i had that option, but for now the machine needs to fit the space.

Brother looks nice ... but out of curiosity I looked around a little, this isn't our field so I'd just walked past these before. 2200 kg weight, 24,000 rpm spindle, 8 tool changer, bt30, double-column style (like a HIllyer), servos not steppers, travels about 8" x 12", 220v or 110v, $15,000 new. No height problem, 1900 mm tall ? what's that in real measurements ?

So as a Certified Cheapskate, I'd consider that as well.

Umm...something from Brother is $15k?

 

[BT Fabrication]

With no machining experience, have you considered that you may potentially crash your machine and be out a good amount of change ($5k+) to repair? Not to mention the amount of time it will take you to become proficient at using the machine. Are you aware that prototyping gets expensive because you are doing low volume, so lots of time invested and new tooling is constantly required = $$$$

This sounds like a no brainer to me, but only you know your situation and can answer if getting a VMC is the correct choice for your business. Try avoid being penny wise, pound foolish. Get a Resin or FDM 3D printer to make your prototypes, check that they fit and look like you want them to, then send out out your CAD files to be machined. With a printer you can make a lot of changes quickly and printing is practically free compared to machining.

This way is probably his best way, basically he can get parts designed and printed for a cost of a $1200 3D printer. Then you can learn cad/cam with printing and not need tens of thousands in something you dont want to learn.

And making one can take hours, but when you make 10, you need to stand by it every 10 parts if its minutes per part to stop and reload it. its not just hit go without a shit ton of work before hand.

If it was easy, literally everyone would be doing it, not just a select few that know how to make a part in spec.

 

[Chips Everywhere]

As others have said, if you do decided to get a mill, get a Speedio. Buying a Haas DT2 instead of a Speedio was a HUGE mistake that has already cost us the price difference of the Speedio.

 

[George-H]

What about a machine from SYIL? The x5 or x7 seem like it would be a good fit for your situation. The SYIL machines look to be somewhere between a tormach and a entry level HAAS. Could be a great starting point?

 

[LOTT]

To be into a relatively fresh TM with ATC and a few options is well over $20k in the current market. Everything costs a fortune now unfortunately.

There's nothing "fresh" about them, it'll be a bit stale, but you save $40k.

Here's an example:

eBay Brother

A machine like the Speedio (or anything else at the top of the budget) is tough to justify in my case unless it's for production. Just for prototyping work i think things like an ATC, probes, etc become luxuries and not necessities, but maybe i'm wrong there.

I think you're off on the prototype vs production costs (and value). Trying to get the first round of your idea made is hard and expensive when you have to go through someone else. And machining the first prototypes will get you better at DFM.

Once you have the design down with good models and drawings it's relatively less expensive to get a bunch made.

 

[memphisjed]

What about a machine from SYIL? The x5 or x7 seem like it would be a good fit for your situation. The SYIL machines look to be somewhere between a tormach and a entry level HAAS. Could be a great starting point?

Even on the zone those machines sit lower than harbor freight conversions. Seeing one make something in person is painful.

 

[George-H]

Even on the zone those machines sit lower than harbor freight conversions. Seeing one make something in person is painful.

Any chance you could elaborate a bit more on your opinion? I have a few friends looking to purchase a machine from SYIL and I’d like to share any information I can to shed light on their performance.

Their demos at IMTS looked rather impressive for a 25K ish machine…..

 

[memphisjed]

Any chance you could elaborate a bit more on your opinion? I have a few friends looking to purchase a machine from SYIL and I’d like to share any information I can to shed light on their performance.

Their demos at IMTS looked rather impressive for a 25K ish machine…..

The syil chapter on the zone is a good place to start. Digging around more over there leads to more questions that the answer is hardware problems. When I was shopping (looking) I went to see a syil in a bike makers shop. He could use it on al, but not on steel without taking a really light cut and .25 mill. Fast forward to now- I know less about more I think you could use a 5/16 if you amped the sfm. The surface finish on al was jittery (not chattery, maybe some). The machine didn’t feel stout and tight.
Worked for him, coping al tubes and opening lugs for steel frames.

The op has a idea that there is big money in boat and turbo parts. Turbo, that word screams skill or high dollar machine. He is not coming across as someone who will spend the time to make the machine work better than it’s abilities with creative cam or wrenches.

I agree the 3d printer might be best option. With a grinder, torch, hammer, anvil, and welder he can make about any shape part in real material once concept is refined for fit.

 

[gkoenig]

The S300 speedio is the ultimate garage mill.

S300s are extremely rare though.

The S700 is the bread and butter of the Speedio lineup in the US. For every 10 of them sold, there are 2-3 S500 size machines. There might be 1 S300 per 10x S700s.

They only started importing the S300 regularly about 4 years ago, and primarily for big production OEMs. Now that the S500/S700 come standard with 28 tools, I don’t think the S300 is going to be imported anymore (it is limited to 21 as the enclosure isn’t wide enough for the 28 turret).

 

[wheelieking71]

S300s are extremely rare though.

The S700 is the bread and butter of the Speedio lineup in the US. For every 10 of them sold, there are 2-3 S500 size machines. There might be 1 S300 per 10x S700s.

They only started importing the S300 regularly about 4 years ago, and primarily for big production OEMs. Now that the S500/S700 come standard with 28 tools, I don’t think the S300 is going to be imported anymore (it is limited to 21 as the enclosure isn’t wide enough for the 28 turret).

That will be sad. I understand the reasoning. But man, the S300.........all that mill in such a tiny, if not dinky, package.
Although I have to admit, a 28 tool Speedio has to be quite brilliant!

 

[Miller846]

I’d look for a used VF-2 with an umbrella toolchanger and run it on a Phase Perfect 20HP Digital Phase Converter. For reference, I’ve got a 2021 Haas VF-2YT in my garage, stuffed it thru an 83” tall garage door. Currently running it on an American Rotary 15HP RPC without any issues but would be better in a Phase Perfect.

I’d either go this route or Haas Mini Mill. Wouldn’t bother with a TM personally.

Shoot me a DM if you’d like to discuss details further. I can send you contact info for the financing company I used as well as the spot I purchased it from. Both were great to work with.

How did you manage to fit a VF under the door? I am looking to put the largest VMC I can in my garage but am limited to an 84” door. Thanks!