Advice Needed- First CNC Mill for prototyping and small batch mfg in home shop

[couch]

How did you manage to fit a VF under the door? I am looking to put the largest VMC I can in my garage but am limited to an 84” door. Thanks!

It’s a 2021 VF-2YT with 20T Umbrella Tool Changer. Had to remove the hot box/regen unit, spindle covers, spindle fan, vertical sheet metal covers between the spindle motor and Z-Axis motor, Z-Axis motor, the cable track (lay it down), and the sheet metal box the cable track bolts to and most the spindle wiring/hoses run thru. Once I had all that off it went in very easily. Had plenty of clearance.

 

[EmGo]

Just out of curiosity - never looked at a Tormach before. I'm not into the dinky stuff too much but saw one on fleabay, it didn't look that awful. The price was crazy but other than that, what's wrong with them ?

(I'm not going to buy one, just curious)

 

[newtonsapple]

Just out of curiosity - never looked at a Tormach before. I'm not into the dinky stuff too much but saw one on fleabay, it didn't look that awful. The price was crazy but other than that, what's wrong with them ?

(I'm not going to buy one, just curious)

Price is honestly the biggest issue. They are often pretty expensive for what they are. If you have the room, you can get a much better machine for the money going for a used older Brother or Sharp.

I own a a Tormach 1100, and I think it probably out performs a CNC knee mill for CNC work in many scenarios. That isn't saying a lot though. I own mine because I stumbled into for a reasonable price and I could easily send it down my basement bulkhead. This meant I didn't need to give up my garage. So the really only compelling reason to buy one if it is the machine you can fit in the space.

 

[snowshooze]

Cliff notes:
Haas TM series v Tormach 1100 v CNC Knee Mill for prototyping and low volume production in residential garage.
80% Aluminum, 20% stainless, $60k max budget (but would prefer to stay under if possible).
Cost vs capability vs size.

Details:

I'm a workaholic with a small software business doing some niche stuff in the auto and marine industries. I want to get into some hardware and bring some of my product ideas to life. My intention is primarily niche stuff that is high margin and low volume...think German cars and speed boats. I do not have commercial space, and do not want to cover that overhead for at least 2 years. I do have a 2 car residential (attached) garage loaded with the typical tools / equipment of a serious auto/motorcycle enthusiast and amateur fabricator (space is tight but not terrible). Single phase, 50A 220V is in the garage now, and 3 phase would require an RPC. I also plan to move in about 2 years, so that's another consideration in this equation.

I have good mechanical abilities but i have no experience whatsoever in machining. I have no interest in learning on a manual mill. Zero. Spending days beside a Bridgeport turning wheels while watching an endmill creep along is close to my idea of hell, and with my existing workload i do not have the time or patience to make batches of parts that way. I work a ton of hours now to meet contractual obligations, which is a major hurdle in getting the next endeavors off the ground. In the long run, my time is much better spent working on CAD/CAM in Fusion 360 so i can use CNC to automate the machining process and have a machine make parts while i'm free to work on software and try to get those parts sold.

Given the fact that i'm not looking for high volume, machine speed is low on my list of priorities. The vast majority of products i have in mind would fit in a small machine, but it would be great to have the flexibility of larger travels. I value this more than machine speed, but the downside being floor space which is already in short supply. I'd really like to avoid going below travels of about 20x10".

Year end is here and my business has $60k available that i can put towards this, but i would still rather a down payment, finance the remainder, and keep extra cash on hand for flexibility / other things. Worth noting that Haas denied me for financing even with a significant down payment. I have no idea why, i have an 800+ credit score, almost no debt, never once had a late payment on anything, and am in solid financial shape. They claim they ran both the business credit and my personal credit and denied both, so i'd have to either get outside financing or write a check for the full amount if i went that route.

I got a quote from my local Haas dealer for a TM-1P with probe & basic tooling. That came out at $54k shipped ($3500 of that is tooling) and i'd still have to pay a rigger to get it off the truck and move a nearly 5000lb machine into my garage. I'm sure some other minor expenses will be incurred, so probably $58k before the first chips. There are a few major hang-ups with this machine...It occupies a lot of space (in a garage at least) and needs 107" ceiling height so that is going to limit where in the garage I can put it. It would be much better to have the back close to a wall, but with the size and weight, when i need access to the back it's going to be a project to move...not to mention relocating in a couple years.

The TM-0P falls into sort of a no man's land, it can be moved in the garage on a pallet jack but is too big to lift with anything i have available at home. The value proposition of the TM series makes more sense for me than the Mini Mills. I'm sure the TM-0P would still do 99% of what i'd ask of it while being slightly cheaper, smaller and lighter than the TM-1P.

This brings me to something even lighter duty, like Tormach. I know they have come a long way, but it's hard to stomach the pricing for a light duty machine. Comparably equipped with an ATC and shipping it's a $40k machine. Realistically about a $14k difference from the TM-0P when the higher shipping, rigging, etc costs of the Haas are considered. It's a lot less machine but that also has benefits in my case. It fits in a better part of the garage, I can lift it, move it as needed, etc. It'll only take a 12 pack and a pizza to get it on and off a trailer. I also assume i wouldn't have any issue with financing, and that's a very nice bonus.

One of the other ways i could approach this is something like a CNC knee mill. It would give me good travels and a lot of flexibility with less floor space needed, borderline movable, etc. Very slow, lack of enclosure is a pain point and without an ATC, it may push me more into just doing the prototyping / initial batches, and eventually subbing out production (assuming volume makes sense)...but that might be the way to go until i feel more comfortable carrying overhead for more space. I haven't gotten quotes on these yet but it looks like something from CNC Masters would be on my floor and making parts with good options (digital edge finder, tool height setter, rigid tapping, and dedicate touch screen computer) for under $20K...which would have been the down payment on the Haas. There are a half dozen other companies that make similar setups (but don't publish pricing). I don't have enough knowledge of the control systems to understand how big of a limitation / pain point the control systems on these machines are vs something mainstream like Haas.

I'd really like to get into something that has a warranty and support, but i'm not opposed to other models and/or used machines. As far as used machines, there is nothing local from Haas that is not either outdated/unsupported or too close to new pricing. It would be great if i had more time to wait/shop, but for tax reasons i do not. There are a couple of Tormachs that look like they were bought as base model machines and half-ass DIY upgraded (no thanks). There is what appears to be a good condition Alliant 49x9 knee mill a few hours north that looks like it has had a nice CNC retrofit done with good components for $7500. Outside of that i'd have to travel or take someone's word for the condition of a machine.

Help me unfuck myself, other machines to consider, view from a machinist's perspective, etc!

Thanks!

One machine I have is a Haas TM-2
Open machine. I added P-cool and a mechanical switch to turn the coolant on and off.
I am doing bearing fits on it regularly.
Haas is a bit predatory on their options.... but I went ahead and added P-cool and Rigid tapping...
As well as the Renishaw WIPS system, ya just gotta' ....
For the money, and being a hand-changer ( Well, I built a caddy and programmed in tool changes for a dozen tools ) I am greatly pleased with this thing.
At 7.5 HP, a bit on the short side, but in the real-world, that barely makes an impact.
Plus, it is really friendly to run.
You couldn't GIVE me a Tormach.
Mark

 

[hahn_rossman]

Learning DFM as a prototype designer of your own parts is critical. Finding a good prototype shop in your area to make parts for you might also come with a lot of advice about how to make things. It helps to be open about what you are trying to accomplish, and what's important to you. Most shops have made a lot of different types of parts and have a lot of institutional knowledge because of it. Just getting another set of eyes on your model can often help you advance your design. In Seattle I'm lucky to have some peers who are happy to look over stuff and provide feedback.
Hahn Rossman