Advice needed - internalizing injection mold making

[INJ]

Dear All,

Our company has been producing injection molded products (eyeglasses) for over 70 years. Sourcing molds has always been inflexible and slow, we are now thinking of doing it on our own. We would be starting from scratch.

Our machining know-how is limited to plastic machining (5 axis specialty machines) and jig making on a Brother TC-S2C-0. What we currently make requires tolerances no where near to what injection molds require.

My research has yielded three potential paths to follow in order to succeed with this project.

1) Acquire a company specialized in injection mold-making, specifically for our industry.​

COST: ∼€1M​

PROS: Readily available know-how and machinery.​

CONS: Relatively far from our main HQ, company integration issues, old machinery.​

​

2) Proceed to purchase new machinery and create a mold-making shop from the ground up.​

COST: ∼€1.5M+​

PROS: Tailored to our needs, new generation machinery.​

CONS: Requires long time to set up and run at capacity, extremely long ROI, essential know-how missing, machininsts are scarce in our area.​

Frankly, this option gets harder to envision every time I think about it. Machine selection is overwhelming and costly: do I really need a €300k+ CNC machine?, How am I going to figure out the EDM process? and how about all the CMM equipment?​

​

3) Purchase innovative novelty machines which push most of the precision related work to the CAD/CAM environment.​

COST: ∼€850k​

PROS: Potentially plug and play solutions, future proof.​

CONS: Not sure if these are reliable solutions, potentially very expensive machines.​

I am talking about the Matsuura Lumex series (hybrid cnc-3D printing, ∼€750k), which virtually eliminates the need for EDM. Or the Jingdiao CNC machines, which allow machine on-board measurement and automatic compensation, maintaining extremely tight tolerances automatically.​

​

Lastly, I am aware that this project is much more than just the machinery itself. For the moment, we need a starting strategy which some forum member with more experience than us can perhaps help.

 

[EmGo]

​

3) Purchase innovative novelty machines which push most of the precision related work to the CAD/CAM environment.​

​

Yeah right. Since you seem to want to throw a lot of money away, could I possibly sign up to get some of it ? I will promise to bring you peach ice cream every friday, which is more than you're going to get from this nonsense.

 

[INJ]

I don't get the ironic answer?

I am literally asking advice. I am not a machinist, I don't own a machining company. I am looking to start making molds for my company.

If you're an expert or have some experience, then your advice is welcome. I gather that you think my budget is way to high? I genuinely have no idea of what the right price and strategy for this project is.

However, keep irony and giggles to yourself.

 

[EmGo]

I don't get the ironic answer?

You're going to get more than irony around here if you say "push most of the precision related work to the CAD/CAM environment."

Most of us have actually used cadcam and even made parts. That's one of the more ridiculous things I've heard this week.

I am literally asking advice. I am not a machinist, I don't own a machining company. I am looking to start making molds for my company.

That's certainly a good start. If I were a company that wanted to get into molding, I'd certainly assign someone who is neither a machinist nor an owner to the task ! This reeks of success !

as I said, since you'll be throwing money away, can I sign up for some ? Even a few thousand would be fine.

Could someone please step in here and remind me how you plan to kick China's ass in manufacturing ?

 

[DDoug]

I don't get the ironic answer?

I am literally asking advice. I am not a machinist, I don't own a machining company. I am looking to start making molds for my company.

If you're an expert or have some experience, then your advice is welcome. I gather that you think my budget is way to high? I genuinely have no idea of what the right price and strategy for this project is.

However, keep irony and giggles to yourself.

What mold shops have you tried that are causing problems ?
Nearby is meadville, pa and is filled with plastic mold shops. many have been loosing work to china, and I think you may find builders here that can help you.

 

[INJ]

What mold shops have you tried that are causing problems ?
Nearby is meadville, pa and is filled with plastic mold shops. many have been loosing work to china, and I think you may find builders here that can help you.

Hi Doug,

I am from Italy. Haven't had problems with any particular mold shop. We also move mold development to the far east in the past years, but the issue is time.

We would like to build an in house mold shop to do everything on our own and have a reliable schedule on tooling time.

Only thing is that I am overwhelmed by the selection of appropriate machinery for this task and still hesitant on how to approach this project.

 

[INJ]

You're going to get more than irony around here if you say "push most of the precision related work to the CAD/CAM environment."

Most of us have actually used cadcam and even made parts. That's one of the more ridiculous things I've heard this week.

Well, you may be right. But I'm not trying to belittle a machinists work in any way. When I mentioned I am not a machinist, I mean that this aspect has not been part of my job for many years. I have plenty of experience on CNC mills, machining plastics mainly. Expertise will always be a determining factor for a machinist to produce quality parts, however, this trade unfortunately has been dying in our area.

That is why companies have started to offer solutions which can potentially reduce the initial experience required for a person to start producing parts, with an ever-diminishing need for initial training. At least that's how I see it.

I do not mean that a skilled person is not needed, but I definitely feel like the process is being digitalized. Our company has 25 5-axis CNC machines making spectacle frames, and setups, toolpaths and workpiece handling is completely automatic, and has been for several years.

That's certainly a good start. If I were a company that wanted to get into molding, I'd certainly assign someone who is neither a machinist nor an owner to the task ! This reeks of success !

For your information, I am the owner of the company. You feel like this project has no basis for success? That's your opinion. In reality, there isn't even a project in place. I am just scouting for ideas for the moment.

as I said, since you'll be throwing money away, can I sign up for some ? Even a few thousand would be fine.

Could someone please step in here and remind me how you plan to kick China's ass in manufacturing ?

Have I ever said anything about kicking china's ass? No, and I wouldn't because honestly, who can?
We work in the fashion business making premium product in Italy. Our customers are not concerned about price. My aim is not to gain a buck or two on molds, but to gain freedom and total control on my supply chain.

We have been manufacturing frames since the late 1940s, we have 300 employees. We run business seriously and have high budget, what is wrong with that?

 

[jaguar36]

I think most of us are skeptical of #3 as they are just marketing claims made by folks that want to sell you stuff.

Either #1 or #2 would work, I would say it depends on what you're able to find. If there is a good shop around that you can buy that would obviously be the easiest. I'd be skeptical though about being able to find any good shops that are willing to sell for $1m. Maybe you can find a shop that was very good technicaly but just terribly run.

For #2 you'd need to find someone capable with the right experience to stand up a mold shop. That's going to be very difficult to find, and very expensive. Plus you're then going to need to buy all the machines, tooling, and metrology equipment.

I'd be looking out to see what you can find. If you can find a good shop that fits the bill, go that route, if you can find someone with the right experience, go that route.

 

[Areo Defense]

Dear All,

Our company has been producing injection molded products (eyeglasses) for over 70 years. Sourcing molds has always been inflexible and slow, we are now thinking of doing it on our own. We would be starting from scratch.

Our machining know-how is limited to plastic machining (5 axis specialty machines) and jig making on a Brother TC-S2C-0. What we currently make requires tolerances no where near to what injection molds require.

My research has yielded three potential paths to follow in order to succeed with this project....

​

I would take a long look at finding a mold supplier before taking the leap into mold making and make absolutely sure there are no viable mold sources before deciding to do it in-house. Even at that point, unless your volume can make it financially attractive, you might consider dealing with sourcing logistics issues until it's financially attractive. Options 2 and 3 both require an engineering department with experienced, knowledgeable people and excellent cad/cam software.

 

[newtonsapple]

Step one is to hire a skilled mold builder that has the experience to make these decisions based on your specific business situation.

Molds will not get built without skilled people. Think about the basics, like who is going to do polishing? Outline all the steps of a mold build and who would do them. Can you even staff a shop with the people you need?

One of the things that can help a lot is tailoring your tooling system to meet your needs. What sort of production quantity are expected from a tool and what quality requirements like parting line flash are required? If you are looking for fully hardened multicavity tools, I don't think that is going to happen in house.

Given that you are producing eyeglasses, all your products fit within approximately the same envelope. I would look hard at an insert based tooling system if you are not already using one. Someone can probably design a modular tooling system that can meets a lot of your needs. This would work well for high turnover models with low to moderate volumes. Limiting the scope of work to just inserts is much more achievable.

 

[TAIWA NUMBA WAAN]

@INJ is there a chance you can buy the preexisting mold company, move all their equipment to your facility, and try to get their employees to transfer? Or poach them?

I don't know how mobile skilled workers are in Italy, if people are willing to move for a job or not.

I also assume that most often lead time in mold making is waiting for the right expensive mold metal to be delivered, or the other mold components like the pins and stuff. If you are making very small molds and parts, I would think the injection molding machine wouldn't be too huge either.

I don't know why the other guys here are bringing up Chinese competition; I bought a pair of glass swimming goggles from an Italian company specifically because they are made in Italy, maybe even from your company, and after 4 years of constant use I lost them recently. I'll buy another pair.

 

[INJ]

I would take a long look at finding a mold supplier before taking the leap into mold making and make absolutely sure there are no viable mold sources before deciding to do it in-house. Even at that point, unless your volume can make it financially attractive, you might consider dealing with sourcing logistics issues until it's financially attractive. Options 2 and 3 both require an engineering department with experienced, knowledgeable people and excellent cad/cam software.

Well a potential solution we thought about was planning new collections a year in advance to overcome the sourcing issues. This would work for our own projects, however it would be an immediate no from third party customers to hear about a 1 year lead time.

@INJ is there a chance you can buy the preexisting mold company, move all their equipment to your facility, and try to get their employees to transfer? Or poach them?

I don't know how mobile skilled workers are in Italy, if people are willing to move for a job or not.

Workers in Italy are completely immobile. That's the biggest issue.

I also assume that most often lead time in mold making is waiting for the right expensive mold metal to be delivered, or the other mold components like the pins and stuff. If you are making very small molds and parts, I would think the injection molding machine wouldn't be too huge either.

We already have the injection molding machines, we're just looking to start making the actual molds.

I don't know why the other guys here are bringing up Chinese competition; I bought a pair of glass swimming goggles from an Italian company specifically because they are made in Italy, maybe even from your company, and after 4 years of constant use I lost them recently. I'll buy another pair.

AMEN.

Step one is to hire a skilled mold builder that has the experience to make these decisions based on your specific business situation.

Molds will not get built without skilled people. Think about the basics, like who is going to do polishing? Outline all the steps of a mold build and who would do them. Can you even staff a shop with the people you need?

We actually have a bit of experience with very simple aluminum molds we made in house. Polishing wasn't our issue. We stopped because of unacceptable flash quantity. Our main problem is keeping tolerance on mating surfaces. We are also unable to include undercuts in our designs as we do not posses the know-how to integrate movements within our molds.

One of the things that can help a lot is tailoring your tooling system to meet your needs. What sort of production quantity are expected from a tool and what quality requirements like parting line flash are required? If you are looking for fully hardened multicavity tools, I don't think that is going to happen in house.

No multicavity tools. Quantity per model is decreasing but model count is increasing. Parting line flash does not have to be that tight since we tumble finish our frames anyways.

Given that you are producing eyeglasses, all your products fit within approximately the same envelope. I would look hard at an insert based tooling system if you are not already using one. Someone can probably design a modular tooling system that can meets a lot of your needs. This would work well for high turnover models with low to moderate volumes. Limiting the scope of work to just inserts is much more achievable.

This used to be a common practice in the past but has disappeared since the advent of cheap Chinese molds. Do you by chance have any leads towards finding someone that could aid us in such a task?

 

[toolmaker96]

Problem with lens molds is not building the molds, but the polishing. Polishing especially to that degree is an art. Unless you have have a polisher lined up that has extensive experience polishing to a lens quality, then I would be very hesitant thinking that you can jump off the deep end & start building lens tooling.

 

[INJ]

Problem with lens molds is not building the molds, but the polishing. Polishing especially to that degree is an art. Unless you have have a polisher lined up that has extensive experience polishing to a lens quality, then I would be very hesitant thinking that you can jump off the deep end & start building lens tooling.

we're only talking about eyewear frame molds, not lens molds.

 

[BT Fabrication]

What Local to you for injection molding companies have you dealt with? Im sure being near Germany, that there is a ton of mold makers there and shops that could easily complete the work quickly and local enough to get you what you need without attempting it from the ground up.
Might head hunt from other places to bring in skilled workers.
Machines, depends on how many molds you need in an avg year. pallet machines to switch jobs out quickly all the way to a 750,000 machine like a 5 axis hermle or kern that can work in micron accuracy.

 

[mzbg]

Injection mold machining really isn't typically as difficult as you make it out to be, what it is is time consuming. Strong mold design allows molds to be adapted to different mold bases. basically, you need to design your molds around mold bases bought from suppliers for the ejector pins etc.

IMO for what it sounds like you're machining you'd be best off with a high speed machine for machining die sinker EDM electrodes and using the sinker EDM to cut the cavity for the frames. You could use a small EDM machine to "burn" the inserts for a larger mold as others have mentioned due to general commonality between the frames (sprue and runners etc. would likely be functional for all frame variants). The geometry of the frames won't lend itself to being machined as it is a number of small radii and tight corners. These become problematic without a speeder head or the like. The sinker EDM while time consuming can yield high accuracy results with a surface that can likely be polished easier than what you would be left with post machining. As others have said, the polish on the mold is critical for appearance post molding, and given as this is a fashion item I suspect that is of upmost importance.

 

[5 axis Fidia guy]

Sounds like you should PM me and we can build the molds for you, even run them for a while if you wish.

 

[Scottl]

I don't get the ironic answer?

I am literally asking advice. I am not a machinist, I don't own a machining company. I am looking to start making molds for my company.

If you're an expert or have some experience, then your advice is welcome. I gather that you think my budget is way to high? I genuinely have no idea of what the right price and strategy for this project is.

However, keep irony and giggles to yourself.

Ignore the Chinese troll. IMO best option would be to talk to injection machine manufacturers about companies to make your dies and material sources.

 

[implmex]

Hi INJ:
I am a retired moldmaker living in Western Canada.
I've built short run, quick turnaround and prototype molds for 40 years, so I know the turf on which you wish to compete and I know the challenges you will face.

From what I can gather, you understand very well how to mold a part successfully...you've done it for decades.
You also understand pretty much everything you really need to, in order to conceptualize a new set of mold inserts for a new eyeglass design, and you want to be able to build those inserts in a week or so, ready for the press.
I say so because obviously you've been handling those kind of mold inserts for decades too so you know what they basically look like.

So your task is actually not that daunting.
To do what you envision in-house you will need:
1) A skilled product designer who can come up with pleasing new designs whenever you want them.
I assume you already have that.

2) A skilled mold designer who can sort out how to establish the proper parting surfaces, how to cool the inserts how to gate and sprue the inserts, where to put the ejection features, how to vent the mold etc etc.
None of this is rocket science, but it needs a skilled experienced guy to make those decisions.
They are also hireable.

3) The equipment to successfully execute on the designs...hopefully to execute on them efficiently and to a high enough standard that you get a quality product out the other end of your molding process.
Much will depend on the output you want to achieve.
You will need to get adequate gear so your toolmaker doesn't need to fight the equipment to get the results you need, so expect to spend for very good equipment.
The list of what you will need is pretty basic: In my toolroom there is CNC milling, CNC turning, sinker EDM, wire EDM, surface grinding, cylindrical grinding, laser welding and miscellaneous equipment.

At a minimum you want excellent 5 axis milling...Hermle or DMG or Okuma quality.
The sinker and the wire are nice to have but not essential.
A quality surface grinder is necessary in my opinion too, as is a basic lathe.
All the bits and bobs that make it run smoothly...toolholders, workholders, components, supplies, metrology...the list is endless but it's all small potatoes.

4) And last, and most important, is the skilled toolmakers to run them...you cannot underestimate what this aspect of it is going to take...it's EVERYTHING.
You will need at least two guys. (or girls)

As your scale and time to market get closer to your goals you will need to make strategic decisions about how to grow.
More gear
More bodies
More infrastructure.

I estimate that to go from art to part for a single cavity aluminum mold for eyeglass frames, you should ultimately be able to do it in under a week, assuming you're not insert molding, or overmolding or some other exotic process.
If your 5 axis milling gear is very good, there is no mold polishing to speak of.
If your mold design is good, there is no need for elaborate mechanisms in the mold to release and eject a part.
If your infrastructure is good, you will be building only cavity inserts, not complete molds.
If it is not, you need to invest in Master Unit Dies, so you don't need to build complete molds and can change cavities while the mold is still in the press.

So your task is not unreasonable to take on.
As you've pointed out already, finding and retaining the right people will be the hardest part.
The usual inducements will be needed to attract them... providing a decent, hospitable and interesting workplace will help to retain them.
You already know how to do that if you've been in business for 60 years.

Everything else can be solved with liberal applications of money, and I assume you best know how to do financing in your home country too.
I expect, to be fully equipped you will spend a million Euros or so, and that money will get you the ability to turn one new design in a week.
You will need two years of screwing around with heartaches and hair tearing to get there IMO.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[INJ]

Hi INJ:
I am a retired moldmaker living in Western Canada.
I've built short run, quick turnaround and prototype molds for 40 years, so I know the turf on which you wish to compete and I know the challenges you will face.

From what I can gather, you understand very well how to mold a part successfully...you've done it for decades.
You also understand pretty much everything you really need to, in order to conceptualize a new set of mold inserts for a new eyeglass design, and you want to be able to build those inserts in a week or so, ready for the press.
I say so because obviously you've been handling those kind of mold inserts for decades too so you know what they basically look like.

So your task is actually not that daunting.
To do what you envision in-house you will need:
1) A skilled product designer who can come up with pleasing new designs whenever you want them.
I assume you already have that.

2) A skilled mold designer who can sort out how to establish the proper parting surfaces, how to cool the inserts how to gate and sprue the inserts, where to put the ejection features, how to vent the mold etc etc.
None of this is rocket science, but it needs a skilled experienced guy to make those decisions.
They are also hireable.

3) The equipment to successfully execute on the designs...hopefully to execute on them efficiently and to a high enough standard that you get a quality product out the other end of your molding process.
Much will depend on the output you want to achieve.
You will need to get adequate gear so your toolmaker doesn't need to fight the equipment to get the results you need, so expect to spend for very good equipment.
The list of what you will need is pretty basic: In my toolroom there is CNC milling, CNC turning, sinker EDM, wire EDM, surface grinding, cylindrical grinding, laser welding and miscellaneous equipment.

At a minimum you want excellent 5 axis milling...Hermle or DMG or Okuma quality.
The sinker and the wire are nice to have but not essential.
A quality surface grinder is necessary in my opinion too, as is a basic lathe.
All the bits and bobs that make it run smoothly...toolholders, workholders, components, supplies, metrology...the list is endless but it's all small potatoes.

4) And last, and most important, is the skilled toolmakers to run them...you cannot underestimate what this aspect of it is going to take...it's EVERYTHING.
You will need at least two guys. (or girls)

As your scale and time to market get closer to your goals you will need to make strategic decisions about how to grow.
More gear
More bodies
More infrastructure.

I estimate that to go from art to part for a single cavity aluminum mold for eyeglass frames, you should ultimately be able to do it in under a week, assuming you're not insert molding, or overmolding or some other exotic process.
If your 5 axis milling gear is very good, there is no mold polishing to speak of.
If your mold design is good, there is no need for elaborate mechanisms in the mold to release and eject a part.
If your infrastructure is good, you will be building only cavity inserts, not complete molds.
If it is not, you need to invest in Master Unit Dies, so you don't need to build complete molds and can change cavities while the mold is still in the press.

So your task is not unreasonable to take on.
As you've pointed out already, finding and retaining the right people will be the hardest part.
The usual inducements will be needed to attract them... providing a decent, hospitable and interesting workplace will help to retain them.
You already know how to do that if you've been in business for 60 years.

Everything else can be solved with liberal applications of money, and I assume you best know how to do financing in your home country too.
I expect, to be fully equipped you will spend a million Euros or so, and that money will get you the ability to turn one new design in a week.
You will need two years of screwing around with heartaches and hair tearing to get there IMO.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

The answer I was hoping for. Would you mind if I PM you?