Advice needed on buying a new or used Tormach CNC Mill

[rk9268vc]

My only concern is the cost of Haas tooling .... Good Lord!!!
I'll search threads here to see where you pros get your tooling.

What I did when I got started was to find a local tool rep that can get you tooling within a day or so. Then just buy the tools you need to do each job as they come. Just roll the cost into each job and it hurts less. You also then only have exactly what you need.

 

[cosmos_275]

I started my adventure into owner/operator land with a CNC router. I had looked at Tormach needed the big cutting area. Later, I got a real machine. I looked at Haas mini mill as the next step, but got financing on a new Speedio, no regrets.. well except all the lessons hard learned, but that’s with anything. Machine payment was like 1000/mo.

Reading this thread on Tormach makes me so glad I never touched one. In 5 years with a Speedio, I’ve changed AA batteries and injected grease.. nothing else for maintenance.

I started by kicking a woodchuck out of a single car garage with a dirt floor and sitting the router and whatnot in there. Had I known what I do now, I’d have just got the Speedio and rented commercial space to start with.

I’d either get something for a hobby (Tormach, fine, whatever) or, if you want to be serious about a business and making money, buy serious equipment and try to do it right. Get a loan and a good machine. Don’t go crazy on tooling because you don’t know sh*t yet. Maritool is 300 for free shipping.

 

[majohnson]

A informative YouTube channel if you have not watch it is “adamthemachinest”. He is a tool maker and just went on his own, he is a smart guy! I have learned a lot from him.

If you watch one of Abom79 videos he is at SMW and John brings up that he moved his Tormech into the training area. So it not in production area.

 

[DDoug]

If the OP is a "Maker"..... why not just "Make" your own machine ?

 

[AmericanMaker]

A informative YouTube channel if you have not watch it is “adamthemachinest”.
If you watch one of Abom79 videos he is at SMW and John brings up that he moved his Tormech into the training area.

@majohnson, I subscribe to both, and I saw Abom79's tour of John's shop.
I head up to John's shop in October for his training class. I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Mtndew]

My only concern is the cost of Haas tooling .... Good Lord!!!

They are on the cheaper end of the spectrum.
If you really want sticker shock, look at the overpriced Big Daishowa stuff.

Rego-Fix makes good stuff, but they charge for it too. Definitely not for startups, or people learning.

MariTool.com makes great stuff for a great price.
Another brand that I have bought from in the past is PioneerNA.com.

 

[triumph406]

Look for a machine with tooling. The last Fadal I bought came with 100+ Cat40's most unused. So I'll never need to buy a holder again. ER16/ER32's can be had cheap of of ebay. I haven't had any concentricity problems with any of the cheap collets. Buy what you need but no more to begin with

Vises can be had cheap off of the Kurt website. Look for the 'scratch and dent' section. That's where a lot of my vises have come from. They're now truely scratch and dented.

 

[C&C]

I am dipping my toes in the waters of machining as a part-time gig. My focus for now will be small jobs from Xometry. I know people have strong opinions about Xometry, but for now it's the best option for me and my current goals.

I have an opportunity to buy a used Tormach PCNC 1100. If you were starting a small, one-person, side-gig CNC machining business in your garage, what machine would you choose? Please keep in mind that my budget is somewhere in the $16k range.

My options are :
- A new PCNC 440 with some extras.
- A new 770M with very limited extras.
- A used PCNC 1100 with lots of extras, for a great price that is pushing my budget a little, but well below $20k. Below is a list of what comes with the used PCNC 1100.

A little about me. I'm a tech nerd. I'm in my 36th year as software engineer. I love Fusion 360. I'm finishing off a Fusion 360 deep-dive course. In October, I head to Saunders Machine Works (DIY CNC) for his Hands On CNC Machining Training Class. I already own and work on an Emco Maximat Super 11 lathe and BP milling machine clone. I've considered doing a CNC conversion on the mill, but have decided that's not the path I want to go down.

Thanks!
Chris

I made the mistake of buying Tormach instead of investing in the salvaged machines I had for free.

I am still struggling to make the Tormach relevant to my business since it miserably failed to meet my expectations and it's capabilities were massively oversold.

I recently even invested in the BT30 upgrade and they had the audacity to mail back the same spindle I refused due to damage from poor packaging and handling during shipping.

Don't invest in them, especially with the global supply chain issues. They could collapse at the drop of a hat and you are stuck with a buggy machine and no support.


My 1100M has been extremely temperamental. I've chewed through thousands of dollars of parts from toolchanger wrecks and last I spoke to Tormach the computer doesn't support cutter compensation because they want you to adjust it through CAD/CAM. It tool 2 months of getting handed off from various tech-support people to be told this was the source of my problem.

My first Matsuura MC-760V2 got dropped by the rigger on it's side. After replacing the encoder and other repairs this machine has returned from the dead as an testament to Japanese robotics straight from an anime.

 

[cosmos_275]

I'm am going to try and hire a local Haas Factory outlet, or another independent company to do a machine inspection before I do anything else.

I prefer the uncertainty of being able to make a monthly payment over the uncertainty of a used machine. You'll have plenty of stuff to do and limited time with a day job, so I would go new. You should have no issue getting financing.

 

[prime_mover]

One of the reasons people like myself bought a Haas Mini-Mill to start is because it was easy to finance and affordable enough. Plus it fit in the garage, single phase power and all that, and is capable of doing real work. Financing a new mini-mill or TM-0P or whatever through Haas is a matter of 10 or 20% down, which may be $4k or $8k, and then your payments on a 60 month note are $600/mo or some such. You don't need all that many tool holders to start, nor tooling. I started with maybe 12 holders and three drill chucks from Maritool and a few end mills in each fractional size up to 1/2", + a master drill set (Kodiak 37491448), and some Huot cabinets to put the drills in. A plastic 64 bin Akro-mils (10164) cabinet houses my end mill collection for the most part. Go with SK collet tool holders over ER collets. Don't buy collets from Maritool though, Tegera AA collets from Shars are better and cheaper, if they are ever in stock.... (what the hell Shars? You've got one job!) And I think I'll stop there with the BOM.

Haas has pissed a lot of people off in recent years with bad products and have also taken iron out of the castings for cost saving purposes. I won't go with Haas for my next machine, but the Mini-Mill is still a good place to start out I think, and presumably the TM-0P as well.

Tormachs are a joke.

 

[BOB-OO]

The machine you found is leagues better then the Torchmach. It will teach you about maintenance, trouble shooting, cutting, programming, tooling, materials and costing out jobs. All the basics, and if you learn all that, at the same time you will make some good quality parts. Most likely you will lose less money when you turn the Hass for your next piece. Go for it. Make sure it cuts straight.

 

[Mtndew]

the computer doesn't support cutter compensation

WTF?
That alone is reason not to buy one.

 

[thesidetalker]

and last I spoke to Tormach the computer doesn't support cutter compensation because they want you to adjust it through CAD/CAM. It tool 2 months of getting handed off from various tech-support people to be told this was the source of my problem.

Uhh the first video hit on google is mr. goober showing how to use comp.

 

[C&C]

Uhh the first video hit on google is mr. goober showing how to use comp.

There is an insane amount of variation in the machines.

The problem I began calling about was that cutter comp didn't work and they took two months to tell me they didn't support it and wanted you to make adjustments with Fusion.

After the recent updates I'm going to test it to see if they fixed it, but I won't hold my breath.

 

[atex57]

There is an insane amount of variation in the machines.

The problem I began calling about was that cutter comp didn't work and they took two months to tell me they didn't support it and wanted you to make adjustments with Fusion.

After the recent updates I'm going to test it to see if they fixed it, but I won't hold my breath.

What procedure are you using to call cutter comp?

Linuxcnc has had it for many years and Pathpilot is based on Linuxcnc.

Ed.

 

[newtonsapple]

There is an insane amount of variation in the machines.

Not sure what you mean by that. You can upgrade even their first machines to the latest version of PathPilot.

As others mentioned, cutter comp is available. You should clarify how you are trying to implement cutter comp.

 

[AmericanMaker]

@LOTT, I found this post where you were selling a 2008 Sharp SV-2412.
I'd appreciate your opinion on that machine.
I found this 2011 SV-2412 SX and it is only 4 hours from me near Atlanta.
I could meet a technician down there for an inspection.
The only thing I need to confirm is that a rigger could get it through my 82.5" high garage door.
I think $29,500 may be a bit steep. Hopefully they would accept a counter offer.
Thanks!

 

[Garwood]

Couple things to mention-

You keep posting dealer ads for machines. Dealers are a really bad way to buy a machine. They ad zero value to the transaction. That Sharp is a sub $10k machine. I would be amazed if that dealer paid more than $5k for it if they own it.

Real, industrial CNC's are built to flourish in rough environments and recover from stupidity. They are tough, resilient. Buying from a private party gives you the chance to see the machine in the shop it was used in, talk to the guys who ran and maintained it and get a way better deal. The most important part is private sellers are usually honest.

Dealers are out to fuck you. They buy cheap and sell high or they take a hefty percentage. Meet with a few machinery dealers. Size up how little they actually know VS how smooth they talk. Estimate what they're expenses and income might be based on what you see. How many machines do you think they sell a week? A month? a Year? Do some rough math on just how many thousands of dollars they've tacked on to a machine tool just to pay for what you see.

Now what customer service do they provide for that?

They sure as fuck aren't honest. They won't tell you if anything's wrong or what the machine was actually used for. There will not be any after sale support.

IMO, it's way smarter to buy a machine private party. CNC's are not hard to fix. This forum is filled with info on what is good and what is shit. Stop thinking in terms of what will easily fit in your garage and how hard it will be if everything isn't perfect. Nothing is ever perfect. Start opening your eyes to local private party sellers and go look at the god damn things. Go look at every damn machine for sale around you. Not necessarily to buy it, but to learn what to look for in a machine, in a seller- Ask people what riggers they like and if they know of any other machines that fit your needs.

A 30 year old machine from any decent builder will run circles around the little Haas you're looking at. Tons of them will fit under a 7ft door and easily run off RPC power.

This isn't a scary, unsafe or unusual thing to do. Thousands of people do this. I bet there are more 30 year old CNC's cranking out parts in home shops and garages than there are Haas's sold in the last decade. Those people are not dumb and they didn't take a huge risk. Buying a new Haas is a big risk. Thinking you can make a dime on Xometry with a Haas mini- That's a more than a huge risk, that's a mistake.

The Sharp mill is a step in the right direction, but buy one of those for $10k, not $30K. That Sharp is a decent machine. Fanuc is extremely well supported, but that Sharp has the 0i control which is absolute basic level. It's capable, but you can buy better with your money if you shop around.

Be smart with your money. Go talk to real people and see how they make money with CNC's. You're not going to learn what you need to know from the internet.

 

[LOTT]

@LOTT, I found this post where you were selling a 2008 Sharp SV-2412.
I'd appreciate your opinion on that machine.
I found this 2011 SV-2412 SX and it is only 4 hours from me near Atlanta.
I could meet a technician down there for an inspection.
The only thing I need to confirm is that a rigger could get it through my 82.5" high garage door.
I think $29,500 may be a bit steep. Hopefully they would accept a counter offer.
Thanks!

Like I said in that post and many others have said here, the Sharp 2412 is a great garage machine. If you can find a clean one in the teens I would say it's a good option. Just like the Haas's are an order of magnitude more rigid than the Tormach, the Sharp is almost that much stouter than the TM.

That said, I'm going to disagree with Garwood a little bit- there is a value to going with a late model Haas over a Fanuc control for a self taught guy in his garage, that may trump the machine capability. As in there's a point you'd be happy taking slower, lighter cuts rather than beating your head against the wall.

But that's just me, obviously a huge chunk of the machining world likes Fanuc.

 

[Vancbiker]

……That said, I'm going to disagree with Garwood a little bit- there is a value to going with a late model Haas over a Fanuc control for a self taught guy in his garage, that may trump the machine capability. As in there's a point you'd be happy taking slower, lighter cuts rather than beating your head against the wall.

But that's just me, obviously a huge chunk of the machining world likes Fanuc.

In 8-10 years when Haas has dropped support for the control, the garage guy with a Haas will be in a world of hurt when a board dies. The garage guy with a Fanuc will be able to go to Fanuc, TIE, ebay, etc and have plenty of options to get a spare or repair.