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Advice-ready to close doors unless we get help :(

Not many kids in the city want to do manual labour, or not for peanuts.

Looked at the OP website, looks like they make some nice stuff, and the shop looked nice and and clean for a fab/sheet metal shop.

OP may want to look for a small sheet metal shop, with a hungry younger owner, to possibly bring in as a partner in the beginning or on some kind of work to own with an option to buy them out in the future plan? :confused:

This could give the shop some new energy and way to make some money for the current owner. Selling businesses is hard in higher value land areas these days. Most shops can't be sold, with the property and be kept running, as the new owners can't make a living, pay for the shop, and pay for the land with the current business revenue.
 
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Why would the OP come back? The only service we provided was throwing our beers on her when she walked in the door.
Sorry, but the internet has been around for a long time now.
Do you remember the Usenet?
All the slang you use on the internet originated on usenet. 'flame' etc
I remember the usenet, and that was when men were men anonymously trashing each other in epic fashion.
If you cannot take harsh responses, talk to your therapist, but do not ask questions on an internet message board.
It is entirely possible that the OP has a life and simply hasn't gotten around to responding, so this post is not at all aimed at her, but at people who, after a quarter century of internet message boards, cannot get that these mean people do not hate you
Or maybe they do
Who cares?

Parents in their 70s, probably in their 50s, in their 30's when I joined this message board, and offended that a bunch of machinists[who she would have some passing familiarity with] are a$$holes?

C'mon
 
Not many kids in the city want to do manual labour, or not for peanuts.

Looked at the OP website, looks like they make some nice stuff, and the shop looked nice and and clean for a fab/sheet metal shop.

OP may want to look for a small sheet metal shop, with a hungry younger owner, to possibly bring in as a partner in the beginning or on some kind of work to own with an option to buy them out in the future plan? :confused:

This could give the shop some new energy and way to make some money for the current owner. Selling businesses is hard in higher value land areas these days. Most shops can't be sold, with the property and be kept running, as the new owners can't make a living, pay for the shop, and pay for the land with the current business revenue.
Lot of truth here

My business is not worth much, but if it was worth anything, it would be to either one of my customers or suppliers
 
Why would the OP come back? The only service we provided was throwing our beers on her when she walked in the door.
I dunno. My score card shows the following suggestions. Consider this a whiteboard in front of this virtual meeting:
  • Offer more money or you won't find a person with that level of skills and experience.
  • Find a skilled person who's willing to work after hours or weekends.
  • Find the same person who will help to train a new person.
  • Hire someone from within who kinda' sorta' knows the job and could step into those shoes.
  • Do it yourself if you're the owner. Train the new employee.
  • We got some comp job postings from the immediate area, to possibly justify the wages.
  • Offer a partnership / owner buyout schedule to someone who can do the job. They're working for equity in the company.
  • If they're going to close the doors, do it decisively and don't pay needless months of rent just to squeeze an extra 20% out of the assets.
We even had a happy, long-time customer vouch for their quality and business history. I'm not sure how much more constructive this discussion could be.

The last guy that came to us about an hour ago thru an agency came in, retreated to the rest room and then apparently slipped out without a word. He just left.
Imagine that. Slipped out without a word. The only one missing from this meeting is the OP.
 
How many here get Modern Machine Shop? One of my favorite columns used to be Blackman on Taxes--Irving Blackman. That was an absolute, 100% read, every single month. He focused on tax strategies and succession plans for small to medium businesses. Amazing content.

There are so many ways you don't want to transfer or sell a business that this would warrant a consultation with a tax attorney.

A 30-ish engineer I know casually / professionally has a long-time family friendship with a business owner in Los Angeles. It's a product-focused machine shop. They have a gaggle of CNC equipment, some manual machines and some specialty-built machines they use to produce the product. What they don't have is an engineer or CNC programmer.

The owner is 55ish, owns the building and has a side hobby business that he and the engineer both partake in. The owner currently pays mercenaries to program anything he needs. All he needs to know is the program number and how to run it.

I put on the Irving Blackman hat and suggested that this is probably a good future for the 30 year old to consider. He offers to buy out the business. The owner carries the loan and keeps the real estate. Ten year terms. The owner gets to "sell" his machinery and business goodwill but, doesn't take all the money in a single year. That reduces his taxable income.

The current owner continues to collect "rent" on the building which adds to his income. Those two things create a revenue stream for the owner to gracefully step out of the business, still maintain his standard of living and see it continue into the future. If the young guy wants to move the business, he's free to do so. The real estate asset remains. It's almost free to the 30 year old too because he's able to bring so much to the business. Win-win for both parties.
 
How many here get Modern Machine Shop? One of my favorite columns used to be Blackman on Taxes--Irving Blackman. That was an absolute, 100% read, every single month. He focused on tax strategies and succession plans for small to medium businesses. Amazing content.

There are so many ways you don't want to transfer or sell a business that this would warrant a consultation with a tax attorney.

A 30-ish engineer I know casually / professionally has a long-time family friendship with a business owner in Los Angeles. It's a product-focused machine shop. They have a gaggle of CNC equipment, some manual machines and some specialty-built machines they use to produce the product. What they don't have is an engineer or CNC programmer.

The owner is 55ish, owns the building and has a side hobby business that he and the engineer both partake in. The owner currently pays mercenaries to program anything he needs. All he needs to know is the program number and how to run it.

I put on the Irving Blackman hat and suggested that this is probably a good future for the 30 year old to consider. He offers to buy out the business. The owner carries the loan and keeps the real estate. Ten year terms. The owner gets to "sell" his machinery and business goodwill but, doesn't take all the money in a single year. That reduces his taxable income.

The current owner continues to collect "rent" on the building which adds to his income. Those two things create a revenue stream for the owner to gracefully step out of the business, still maintain his standard of living and see it continue into the future. If the young guy wants to move the business, he's free to do so. The real estate asset remains. It's almost free to the 30 year old too because he's able to bring so much to the business. Win-win for both parties.
Your "white board" presentation just might be corrupted by your own confirmation bias.
Too many details are missing from the OP. Too many assumptions made by most of us without knowing what is going on first hand and not knowing the family history first hand.
You might be missing the fact that humans don't always make what others may feel to be rational decisions--which often times upsets the best of plans or has been known to turn defeat into victory---or visa-versa.
Acutally, I'd be surprised if someone who sensed opportunity has not already contacted or visited the person who generated the OP. I'd bet someone has.
No doubt there are many here who know of similar situations where a business others wrote off as lost turned out to be a real gem....or sometimes not.

BTW...if you do a search on PM 'press brake' there are threads that are pretty interesting from PM members who discuss operational issues.....
 
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Press brake operator can be a pretty tricky job depending.

Tons and tons of tricks to it.

I own 2 press brakes and a couple hundred feet of tooling and I get stumped all the time and have to mod tooling and ask the operator at my friends shop how he'd do it.

So I guess I'd be inclined to believe if you don't have a good brake guy you really don't have a snowballs chance in hell of training one.

I did a lot of press brake work early in my career. Yes, it can get challenging when doing more technical stuff like inline punching and polyurethane die forming etc. but for 99% of what people use press brakes for I'd say it's definitely in the shallow end of the metalworking pool.

Two weeks with an old hand would see most people fairly proficient at it.
 
Yeah, that was a real travesty of justice, putting mcveigh in prison. It wasn't his fault, we should have been chasing down ortho lawn care for selling "precursor chemicals".
Betcha California agriculture depends on chemicals in a big way.
 
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Betcha California agriculture depends on chemicals in a big way.
You ain't kiddin'. When we'd run madera, a couple of the supermods were sponsored by guys that sold fertilizer and bug spray. Those things pissed away money like nobody's business, and I don't think I ever saw them make more than four laps without a crash. Impressive cars, even if they were unsophisticated .... vibrated your whole chest cavity when they went past.
 
Family's business is up to $75k a year in property taxes on a rented 12,500 sq' building with a small yard. Monthly rent with the taxes is over $30k. The powder coating oven is costing over $800 a month in just the carbon tax portion of the bill due Turdeau hate of fossil fuels/natural gas...
Wait.....wait....WAIT
Just scanned back thru here. You pay $30,000 PER MONTH for rent on 12,500 sq foot?? And you have to pay the property tax that's included in that? Holy crap how can you afford to make enough money in 12.5k sq ft to pay for that and have anything left over? That's mind boggling.
 
You ain't kiddin'. When we'd run madera, a couple of the supermods were sponsored by guys that sold fertilizer and bug spray. Those things pissed away money like nobody's business, and I don't think I ever saw them make more than four laps without a crash. Impressive cars, even if they were unsophisticated .... vibrated your whole chest cavity when they went past.
Not many know what you're babbling about but I do
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Wait.....wait....WAIT
Just scanned back thru here. You pay $30,000 PER MONTH for rent on 12,500 sq foot?? And you have to pay the property tax that's included in that? Holy crap how can you afford to make enough money in 12.5k sq ft to pay for that and have anything left over? That's mind boggling.
Yeah pondered those numbers myself along with this from another post:
"We're talking $400 per square foot and up. Santa Fe Springs is a highly desirable industrial location" (you do the math)
Of course it all depends on the product being produced and business plan.
 
Not many know what you're babbling about but I do
Are you sure you want to go public with that ?

Coming down for the green in the dash .... in about eighteen seconds at least one will be stuffed into the wall :D

They are cool, just maybe a little hard to handle ....

@standard - maybe, but I don't think these guys. Central valley, ag business, mmmmm .....
 
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Yeah pondered those numbers myself along with this from another post:
"We're talking $400 per square foot and up. Santa Fe Springs is a highly desirable industrial location" (you do the math)
Of course it all depends on the product being produced and business plan.

That right there is issue. 10 years ago it was affordable. The business has been in that location for 35 years, and was a few block over before that. The municipal/city government doesn't want to tax the voters any more then they have to... but the businesses don't have a vote, so they get hit hard every year with tax increases on the property to pay for everything.

They want everyone to be an import type business with floor to ceiling pallet racking and automated forklifts and picker systems. The family's business requires people to have room to work and make things, welding tables, and woodworking equipment, and is very much high variety work not a single item type production. We need square footage to work in, but need to be making money by the cubic foot floor to ceiling. CNC shops that we know are having the same issues, unless you are in a very high profit margin niche. Machines take up a lot of space and only make money in that small envelope.
 
Wait.....wait....WAIT
Just scanned back thru here. You pay $30,000 PER MONTH for rent on 12,500 sq foot?? And you have to pay the property tax that's included in that? Holy crap how can you afford to make enough money in 12.5k sq ft to pay for that and have anything left over? That's mind boggling.

Need to ship out $250k a month minimum, which has been getting harder and harder and doesn't always happen, so you need good months to carry through the winter.

My dad has been very proud of staying made in Canada, and not going to other countries for our castings and other stuff, but that's where all our competitors have pretty much gone for 90% of their product lines if not all. They just warehouse stuff now, floor to ceiling that comes in containers. Very hard to compete. The world has just changed, and need to adapt.
 
Need to ship out $250k a month minimum, which has been getting harder and harder and doesn't always happen, so you need good months to carry through the winter.

My dad has been very proud of staying made in Canada, and not going to other countries for our castings and other stuff, but that's where all our competitors have pretty much gone for 90% of their product lines if not all. They just warehouse stuff now, floor to ceiling that comes in containers. Very hard to compete. The world has just changed, and need to adapt.
"just warehouse stuff now, floor to ceiling that comes in containers"......
Fulfillment centers instead of larger manufacturing plants. Fact of life.
As discussed in this thread smaller manufacturing/machining owners have to be on the top or their game and find a niche need/product to fill. I know a few (really well) that have done OK but it ain't for the week of heart and not much room for mistakes. No one is likely to show up with "I'm from gov't and am here to bail you out".
Might not have many things in common with some PM members and vise-versa I'm sure, but in most all cases they have my full respect for you guys/gals conducting business each day.
 








 
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