ALLEN BRADLEY 1336 Plus II-Multiple Machines?

[Richard Daugird]

I have a US Burke Millrite, that I have yet to take delivery of, but I know it is three phase, either .75 or 1 H.P. I bought an ALLEN BRADLEY 1336-BRF100-AA-EN from ebay for under $100. Based on what I have read here , it should run the mill in my garage. I also have a Clausing drill press, not sure what model, it's in storage awaiting delivery, but it has a 1.5 H.P. three phase as well.

Can I run both of these machines on this Allen Bradley VFD? According to the photos, the drill press has variable speed, so it's not an issue, but I'd like to use the VFD's variable speed on the Millrite. Would I need an external potentiometer?

I have read about this stuff, but I am clueless when it comes to electrical, and even more so with electronics. Thanks.

 

[PWP]

Richard,

You are aware that a BRF drive requires 380/480 volt input ?

Paul

 

[Richard Daugird]

I don't know what the new house has, but I bet it's 240. Looks like I wasted a hundred bucks.

 

[Jraef]

Not necessarily, but you may need a chaser from your checkbook for a transformer to step the 240V to 480V.

That drive can be fed with 1 phase power, so to feed a 1.5HP 3 phase motor from a 1 phase source you will need at least a 3 kVA transformer (plus a disconnect and fusing on both sides). there is one on fleabay for $100, but with shipping and packing, figure $150.

 

[Richard Daugird]

So, if I get a transformer, will I be able to run both machines? How much H.P. will the 1336 support? What about the variable-speed issue?

 

[toolnut]

Richard,

Since you are using a 460 volt VFD is will be close to the same cost if you just buy another 460 vfd for the smaller machine and use one transformer to step up the 240 to 480 and then parallel a pair of 600 volt fused disconnects to feed the VFDs so each machine has it's own vfd. JRAEF has already sized the transformer for you. You need one more piece of information to proceed. The VFDs must be downrated to about 50% of nameplate power due to the single phase input. This means you will need a 2 hp, 3 phase VFD for the mill and a 3 hp, 3 phase VFD for the drill. I did not lookup the A-B 1336 but if it is rated for 3 hp or more then you are good to go on it. I usually pick up 2 hp, 460 volt VFDs, on ebay, for about $45 or so. It is really a no brainer at this price so just put the big one on the drill and buy a 2 hp one for the mill along with a 3 KVA single phase transformer. I usually get the transformer used for less than $50 but they are heavy (about 40 lbs) so the shipping can be costly. Check local sources before buying from ebay and maybe you can save the shipping.

Over the years I have paid the following for Xformers and VFDs
3 kva transformer at scarp yard cost $12
new 3 kva transformer from local classifieds cost $35
used 5 hp, 460 volt VFD from ebay cost $69
used 7 1/2 hp, 460 volt VFD from ebay cost $39
New Old Stock 5 hp, 460 volt VFD from ebay cost $89
used 7 1/2 KVA single phase transformer from IRS auctions cost $125
I had to pay more for 230 volt VFDs but not enough to make it cost effective to use 460 volts though. I have 3 machines that require 460 volts and these are why I hooded up the 460 volt VFDs.

Be aware that you must use 600 volt wiring and wiring components after the transformer. common house wiring is 300 volts and can not be used.

The variable speed drill is a variable speed belt drive. It is no problem to use it with a VFD. You can simply set the VFD at 60 hz and change speed with the belt drive. This way you will distribute wear over a larger area of the sheaves than is you run it at one setting and change the frequency to vary the speed. The belt drive also multiplies the motor torque where the VFD produces constant torque. Some Clausing drills have two speed motors. If you have a two speed motor simply wire it for the high speed and connect to the VFD directly with no switches in between. When you need the low motor speed you simply dial the VFD down to 30 hz and drill away. You have the same torque as the orginal set up had.

Send a Private Message and I will send a phone number if you want to talk. I have very little computer time and may not see messages for days at a time. I have a diagram for connecting a drum switch to control the 1336 if you need it.

JRAEF is the local VFD specialist here. I am simply a user who figured out how to run 3 phase vfds on single phase some 20 years ago.

Bruce Norton
Kingsport, Tn

 

[PWP]

Richard:

The BRF100 has a nominal Hp rating of 10 hp when wired at 480V and operating under Constant Torque mode. Under Constant Torque, wired 480, 3 phase, the input kva is 10.8-13.6 and output is 12.8. Input amps 16.4 output 16.1. The good news this is a Sensorless Vector Drive. I have this same drive in the 240 Volt version sitting on a shelf. I've been debating if I should sell it.

Paul

 

[Richard Daugird]

Looks like I need to learn to be an electrician before I can learn to be a machinist! Just kidding, I am starting to grasp these concepts, thanks fellas.

 

[Richard Daugird]

I think I am ready to install this unit three years later! Anyone have a wiring schematic?

 

[DaveKamp]

I do!

Hi Richard-

I do- I've got the same drive driving a 10hp motor on my Monarch 10EE. I'm using a 7.5kva single-phase transformer, and have the drive limited to about 6hp so I don't overrun the VFD's input capacity at only single-phase input (referred to as 'derate').

With a 1.5hp motor on each device, you'll never find yourself in a situation where the drive won't push those machines... you'd actually be fine with a BRF50 or something even smaller, but you got this one. It WILL work... it'd be happier with a bigger machine to pull, but it'll work. You didn't waste a hundred bucks here, you have a steal-of-a-deal here.

Now, as the others noted, you'll need a transformer... either to step it from 120v or 240v. A 120v/20A receptacle can push up to about a 2hp motor without difficulty. You'll need about a 1.5kva transformer to support the MOTOR. Drive will be fine with it, you'll just be limited by the transformer and motor combination. The machine's drive motor will need to be wired for 480v power, as that's what the VFD will spit out.


If you have lots of machines, and would like them all to have VFDs on-the-cheap, what you CAN do, is mount one big (say, 7kva) transformer in the shop, and then run 480v power to each machine, where there's a VFD on each machine.

I have a wiring diagram that'll give you basic generic operation of a 1336F (including parameter settings to match)... but the forum doesn't support PDF file sizes big enough for the drawing to be postable. Send an email to me ([email protected]) and I'll reply with it as an attachment.

 

[DaveKamp]

Btw...

I have a Clausing just like that... I yanked the vari-drive out, installed a pair of tooth-belt sheaves and a toothed drive belt with about a 5:1 reduction, driving it with a 480v Allen_Bradley 1305 (1305 BA04A) and a 2kva transformer into a 1.5hp motor, set to overspeed to about 180rpm... with a commercial-type footswitch controller, and put a switch up at the top of the depth gauge, so when the spindle's all the way retracted, the motor stops. It's a fast working, strong pulling steel-drilling machine.

 

[Richard Daugird]

Thanks Dave, I sent an email.

 

[Jraef]

If you've had that 1336 drive sitting on a shelf for 3 years unpowered, it might die a premature death now when you energize it. If you want to chase the money you spent with more money, you could try doing what''s called a "reforming" procedure on the capacitors in the VFD. But it entials having a variable voltage source and if you don't have that, you will not like the price of buying one, likely to be more than what you paid for the VFD. You might want to start looking around for a replacement drive so you are prepared.

 

[Richard Daugird]

Good advise. I will get one of these if need be:
FM50-201-OC
http://www.factorymation.com/s.nl/it.A/id.197/.f?sc=2&category=32
It's rated for 1 H.P. but they said I could run a 3/4 H.P. on it as well.

 

[Richard Daugird]

I called the VFD supplier posted above. They said I could run a 3/4 H.P. motor on the 1 H.P. VFD as long as my motor has less than a 4.2 amp load rating, and to wire it with 14ga. wire. Does this sound right? I don't know what the amp/laod rating is, does that sound like what a common 3/4 H.P. milling machine motor would be?

 

[Jraef]

I called the VFD supplier posted above. They said I could run a 3/4 H.P. motor on the 1 H.P. VFD as long as my motor has less than a 4.2 amp load rating, and to wire it with 14ga. wire. Does this sound right? I don't know what the amp/laod rating is, does that sound like what a common 3/4 H.P. milling machine motor would be?

You can always run a motor that is SMALLER than the rating of the VFD, no problem. But the VFD is also the motor overload protection device, so you will have to program the VFD to tell it that the motor is smaller than whatever the factory default settings are. But you should do that anyway.

14ga wire is good for 15A at least, so yes, no problem on a 4.2A load (down to about 1/2 the rating of the VFD in most cases). A 3 phase 3/4HP 230V motor should be around 3.2A actually.

Don't use regular portable cord, use wire in metallic conduit or shielded VFD motor lead cable to connect the motor.

 

[Richard Daugird]

Thanks for the info.

 

[DaveKamp]

Capacitor concerns

J- I see frequent references to capacitor reforming concerns in VFDs.

I've dealt with cap reforming in antique radio transmitters and receivers over the years, where the typical situation was say... a Gonset G-50 or or a Hammarlund HQ-170A that'd sat in a dusty shelf since 1968... and oftentimes, the caps were just shot from too-long sitting. The Sprague 'black beauty' tubulars, and the Sangamo-style high-voltage mica 'brown bricks' frequently go bad, but everything after that vintage seems substantially better.

I've had similar units fitted with more modern electrolytics from the late '70's, that sat for 15 years or more, and never had a wink of problem with 'em, even without doing a 'reforming' operation.

When teaching on railroad propulsion inverters, we'd have a bank of electrolytics filling over half the case (size of a common refrigerator), and they had NO reforming concerns, even for a 5-year storage period... which suggests to me that newer electrolytics... predominantly those made after the late '70's, are much less troublesome than those of the 20's through 60's.

How frequently do YOU see electrolytic capacitor failures? Do you see them failing frequently in NOS and used Allen_Bradley 1305 and 1336 drives? I have about nine A-B drives that're currently in operation, have been for over 6 years now, and they ALL sat for long periods of time before getting powered up. I've got a couple of Omrons and an old TB Woods that're all in the same boat... NONE of them ever suffered a capacitor problem. Even my parts drives have good caps...

 

[Richard Daugird]

Dave-
I know almost nothing about electricity, especially 3 phase, single phase, VFDs, how and why it works, etc. I have a friend who has changed breakers for me, and hard-wired my air compressor. He will hook up my VFD for me if I can find more info; he has never dealt with VFDs or converting single phase to run a three phase motor. I will show him the diagram you sent. I wish there was a "VFD For Dummies" book!

 

[Jraef]

J- I see frequent references to capacitor reforming concerns in VFDs.

I've dealt with cap reforming in antique radio transmitters and receivers over the years, where the typical situation was say... a Gonset G-50 or or a Hammarlund HQ-170A that'd sat in a dusty shelf since 1968... and oftentimes, the caps were just shot from too-long sitting. The Sprague 'black beauty' tubulars, and the Sangamo-style high-voltage mica 'brown bricks' frequently go bad, but everything after that vintage seems substantially better.

I've had similar units fitted with more modern electrolytics from the late '70's, that sat for 15 years or more, and never had a wink of problem with 'em, even without doing a 'reforming' operation.

When teaching on railroad propulsion inverters, we'd have a bank of electrolytics filling over half the case (size of a common refrigerator), and they had NO reforming concerns, even for a 5-year storage period... which suggests to me that newer electrolytics... predominantly those made after the late '70's, are much less troublesome than those of the 20's through 60's.

How frequently do YOU see electrolytic capacitor failures? Do you see them failing frequently in NOS and used Allen_Bradley 1305 and 1336 drives? I have about nine A-B drives that're currently in operation, have been for over 6 years now, and they ALL sat for long periods of time before getting powered up. I've got a couple of Omrons and an old TB Woods that're all in the same boat... NONE of them ever suffered a capacitor problem. Even my parts drives have good caps...

The VFD service tech is next to me in the office and I asked him how often he is seeing cap failures on 1336's and 1305s. He said at least one per week, and that is just Northern California. They are no longer recommending repair on them when they fail now either, they are at the end of their life cycle. He still recommends reforming unpowered drive caps too by the way, but then again, he's an old fart like me...

To whit:
ABB ACS drive reforming procedure, dated 5/5/2010: http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot201.nsf/veritydisplay/cf2c9be9fc666ebbc1257729002bd7be/$file/Guide_for_capacitor_reforming_Rev_G.pdf

Weg document dated 2/23/2011: http://catalogo.weg.com.br/files/wegnet/WEG-how-to-reform-weg-vfd-capacitors-brochure-english.pdf

Toshiba document dated 1/23/2007: http://www.toshont.com/ag/vfddesign/AG40EM.pdf

It's possible that newer electrolytics are better, but I had a 40HP ABB ACS400 drive fail on me rather violently just 2 years ago, it was likely made in the early 90's and had sat unpowered for only 2-3 years according to the owner (although I don't know if I believe that).