Another mastercam vs hypermill discussion... Emphasis on Volumill.

[Matt_W]

I'm curious why no one has brought up PowerMill?

I'd be wary as it's now an Autodesk product and subscription based. I know a few people that were long term users from the Delcam days, that have now jumped ship because of how they have been treated by Autodesk.

 

[empower]

Pretty sure they aren't trying to compete

If you are working with a dumb solid, I think it works very well. If I had to model something from the ground up then yes it wouldn't be my first choice. I have had no issues generating any geometry needed for drive curves, extending surfaces, healing models etc. Which is what I need it for, certainly wouldn't call it shitty for what I use it for, far from it.

different strokes for different folks. for my style of programming, its horrible.

 

[BluishInventor]

How is automation in hypermill? powermill has pretty extensive macro language and supports plugins. does hypermill do that as well?

Hypermill has various forms of automation, which is something I'm still wrapping my head around, but I have gotten my feet wet enough to where I can explain some of what's available.

The big one is Automation Center. A regular Hypermill seat comes with Automation Center Basic which gives you tools revolving around setting up machines, operation setups, fixturing, stock, part definitions, fixture definitions, frame definitions, feature recognition for holes and pockets, applying macros, generating toolpaths, posting, setup sheets, and some others. The Automation Center Advanced(which you would need to purchase) gives you access to pretty much every command Hypermill/HyperCAD has. The depth of that is insane.

The feature recognition stuff is apart of Hypermill itself. I've messed with it a bit and it has quite a bit of depth too. Custom Process Features allow you to essentially build your own feature recognition commands based on layers, colors, group #, Orientation, specific models... It's another realm I haven't quite dove deep into yet, but the power is there. The hole recognition is absolutely fantastic.

Macros allow you store pre-defined Job settings and tools, or groups of jobs and tools, which also pairs with Custom Process Features. You can group them by machine, material, however you like it.

I've gotten a pretty good taste of all this stuff from support at Open Mind, but also from a friend who is building a new CNC manufacturing company automating absolutely everything they can. But by no means am I an expert in these tools and I've probably done them a disservice with my brief explanations.

The tool database is quite proper in the way you store and use tools. You can lock in feeds, speeds, fpt/fpr, ae/ap; per tool for specific materials and usages that you define. It's pretty great. Just takes some leg work to get things setup, but you can do it how you like it.

There is another automation tool that was rather hidden in the folders for the install, but is now available in the start menu. It's called Virtual Tool. From what I can recall, when paired with some of these other functions allows you to add logic to tool selection for macros and CPFs. I have seen a little bit of it, but have never touched it.

The work we do here is so oddball and random, I haven't had a chance to really sink my teeth in with all this stuff. I use some of the pre-made Automation Center scripts for loading in vises and setups. Touched on macros a bit for some specific part families that have similar operations, just different shapes and sizes. I've focused more on building out our tool library to reflect exactly what we have on hand and have started to populate cutting data as I go. Making tool paths is stupid easy. Especially 3x and 5x. It just works.

tldr; The sky's the limit with automation in Hypermill.

 

[Areo Defense]

Thanks. We're in Chatsworth area.

I've definitely heard a lot of good things about NX. But isn't it primarily useful for Siemens controls? We are a Heidenhain shop.... At least in the 5 axis department. I'm sure it doesn't actually matter, but that's my understanding anyway.

NX was at the top of the cad/cam/cae game in general, including 5-axis, long before Siemens acquired UGS. Siemens bought it to round out their Product Life Management offerings and after buying it they added all sorts of functionality tailored specifically for Siemens controls and that hasn't affected anything for Fanuc and Mazak. As for NX it literally represents a fraction of the software and services they offer. That being said Siemens has very deep pockets, never stops moving forward and fully intends to stay at the top of a very large, very impactful game.

 

[Areo Defense]

quote for NX i got last year
Hi Eugene,

The NX CAM 5-Axis Machining license has two purchasing options:

• Subscription: $15,660 yearly (includes maintenance)
• Perpetual: $37,283 with annual maintenance at $7,457. I'd discount the purchase 15% ($5,592.45) bringing the total cost to: $39,147.55

Here's our post specifications form. We use this to capture the post/sim kit requirements and build a quote.

Hank on copy is our post developer. He'll respond with a quote as soon as the form is completed.

A typical 5-Axis post can run from $6-8K, and on-machine probing adds a few $$. I'd assume roughly $10K until you hear back from Hank.

With that Micron on the way, we'll want to get the post sorted out as soon as possible. There are posts the come out of the box with NX that could be used in a pinch. But normally we want to have a post ready when the machine lands and is ready for testing.

Best,

the mastercam and hypermill quotes i've gotten were right along this price, give or take 2-3k, but as we all know, thats without a TRUE CAD system. add in solidworks on top, now either one costs more than NX, with a shittier CAD system, and not native.

I have not priced anything out recently but there used to be perpetual CAM-only licenses for about the price of a subscription for a year.

 

[Areo Defense]

...



Can you share licenses for individual toolpaths like you do in hyperMILL?

My first seat of HM was about the same price as your NX quote, but the rest have been trimmed down quite a bit. We only have two seats for most of the 5X paths, even though we have 4 seats of HM. Sharing is relatively painless since any seat can pull the 5X license as needed.

On paper NX definitely checks a lot of boxes. I am absolutely dying to ditch SolidWorks as our CAD system. However, when you have half a dozen programmers, it's pretty nice to have them do CAD on a $3.5k seat of SW instead of a $40k seat of CAM. We have expensive tastes over here, and it's not easy to satisfy on a budget.

I think most sites don't need a full CAD/CAM/CAE seat per user. They have FlexLM network licensing so you can purchase just what you need without over-buying license bundles. They also just cam out with new token licensing but I don't know anything about it.

 

[Trevor360]

quote for NX i got last year
Hi Eugene,

The NX CAM 5-Axis Machining license has two purchasing options:

• Subscription: $15,660 yearly (includes maintenance)
• Perpetual: $37,283 with annual maintenance at $7,457. I'd discount the purchase 15% ($5,592.45) bringing the total cost to: $39,147.55

Here's our post specifications form. We use this to capture the post/sim kit requirements and build a quote.

Hank on copy is our post developer. He'll respond with a quote as soon as the form is completed.

A typical 5-Axis post can run from $6-8K, and on-machine probing adds a few $$. I'd assume roughly $10K until you hear back from Hank.

With that Micron on the way, we'll want to get the post sorted out as soon as possible. There are posts the come out of the box with NX that could be used in a pinch. But normally we want to have a post ready when the machine lands and is ready for testing.

Best,

the mastercam and hypermill quotes i've gotten were right along this price, give or take 2-3k, but as we all know, thats without a TRUE CAD system. add in solidworks on top, now either one costs more than NX, with a shittier CAD system, and not native.

What were you quoted for Mastercam? I recently bought Mastercam with the Multi-axis for about 40% of that cost with the annual maintenance about 30% of your NX quote.

 

[boosted]

tldr; The sky's the limit with automation in Hypermill.

No way. As much as I like hyperMILL; automation is very much not a strong point.

For anyone using hyperMILL, just open up the help file. The core documentation for all help is about the size of a leaflet. That is very indicative of how much power they give to the users. Even with all of the automation tools, things are parsed out in very small amounts to the end user.

I say this as somebody who is very locked in to hyperMILL, and VERY into process automation. We have the tool database built out, and we are developing macros all the time. I've attended training for the automation center a couple times over the years as the technology develops.

hyperMILL has some great tools for semi-automated programming, and tools for speeding up programming, but any automation is very much an afterthought. If you compare it to some of the competition that is built around feature recognition (FeatureCAM and Esprit, etc...), it's a decade away from catching up.

I really, really, like hyperMILL, but it wouldn't even be on my short list of CAM systems to choose in an environment where the end goal was automated programming.

 

[empower]

I have not priced anything out recently but there used to be perpetual CAM-only licenses for about the price of a subscription for a year.

not sure how you'd get cam without the cad with NX...

 

[empower]

What were you quoted for Mastercam? I recently bought Mastercam with the Multi-axis for about 40% of that cost with the annual maintenance about 30% of your NX quote.

around 36k IIRC, this was about 2-3 years ago.

 

[pato]

not sure how you'd get cam without the cad with NX...

It was about 3-4 years ago, but I was quoted an NX Cam only package that had all the 3+2 axis mill Cam functions and assembly functions I believe, but with limited Cad functions for around 10k. I think it could do synchronous modeling and some limited sketching(you could not hop over to the modeling application for example, you were basically stuck in the manufacturing application). I ended up getting a 5 axis Perpetual Cad/Cam seat for not much more than your subscription price + 4-5k maintenance.(No machine simulation(added later), impeller, lathe, or FBM author and missing lots of the high end Cad surface options, but enough for what I needed).

 

[BluishInventor]

No way. As much as I like hyperMILL; automation is very much not a strong point.

For anyone using hyperMILL, just open up the help file. The core documentation for all help is about the size of a leaflet. That is very indicative of how much power they give to the users. Even with all of the automation tools, things are parsed out in very small amounts to the end user.

I say this as somebody who is very locked in to hyperMILL, and VERY into process automation. We have the tool database built out, and we are developing macros all the time. I've attended training for the automation center a couple times over the years as the technology develops.

hyperMILL has some great tools for semi-automated programming, and tools for speeding up programming, but any automation is very much an afterthought. If you compare it to some of the competition that is built around feature recognition (FeatureCAM and Esprit, etc...), it's a decade away from catching up.

I really, really, like hyperMILL, but it wouldn't even be on my short list of CAM systems to choose in an environment where the end goal was automated programming.

I could agree with that from the standpoint that you have to build your own feature recognition definitions, but in the form CPFs, Macros, and using virtual tool.

Automation Center essentially lets you build a script from the commands within HyperCAD/Hypermill. One would use that to filter geometry to be colored and organized on layers. Then use CPFs and Virtual tool to decide on tooling and apply toolpaths.

But yes, other feature based software have more power out the gate, but not near the same amount of flexibility IMO.

 

[boosted]

Esprit gives you way more power, and it's all actually well documented. CATIA has volumes and volumes of documentation, and basically endless power to write and integrate custom applications. I would bet good money NX is the same as CATIA, with essentially endless automation potential.

hyperMILL only allows you to script a handful of commands, and they are very focused specifically on color, layers, simple geometry changes, and assembly tools.

Again, I am a happy hyperMILL customer, who is not looking to change software. I want hyperMILL to have amazing automation, but it does not. You can't write a custom post processor in hyperMILL. You can't even use the automation center to generate a fully custom tool report. How could any software claim to have robust automation, when you have extremely limited ability to affect the language being output to the machine?

hyperMILL is really good at getting quality five axis toolpath generated quickly and safely. It's okay that they are mediocre at almost everything else.

 

[metalmadness]

I've been using Hypermill for the past 7 months or so, and before that was a hardcore Mastercam fanboi.

Look, I still prefer Mastercam 100% of the time, and unfortunately cannot use it. So Hypermill just takes longer to do basically anything. Workflow, pretty similar to Mcam. However, where Hypermill falls short is...Volumill roughing strategies, 3x code filtering and smoothing, 5x point placement, 5x tilt avoid strategies (they don't really offer that much except model avoidance) and generally speaking, simple things are not good in Hypermill.

For collision avoidance, using the whole model as avoidance can be good. But it can also bog down the system when you don't really care about collisions. Additionally, the CAD tools compared to Mcam SUCK. And I have found that you need to generate a lot of drafting in order to get through a part. The chaining in Hypermill is god awful. I mean really just bad. Mastercam shines in chaining IMO. For Mcam Dynamic milling, you have a ton of strategies and they are all very easy to understand. For outside roughing in, simply choose that. In hypermill you can do it, but it is far less obvious and easy. For simply contouring, Mastercam is easier. It just is.

Another thing, everyhting in Hypermill is A La Carte. You want solid functionality? That will be an additional $2500. For real.

Hypermill is not a bad piece of software by any stretch, and it can do a lot. In fact, the Machine Simulation is exceptional, and I don't find a need at the moment for using Vericut even for simultaneous 5 axis stuff. Mastercam MachSim sucks out of the box. So, simulation is great. But I find that it lacks control in a lot of areas and that very much surprised me when I switched. Hypermill is always referred to as the King of 5 Axis CAM and while it is good, I simply think ModuleWorks toolpaths within Mastercam give you loads more control, options, and strategies compared. I just cant understand how Hypermill doesn't allow you to filter points....

Hypermill has crap documentation and little forum support, which is not optimal. I prefer hardcore documentation and while they do have decent Help in the manual, it lacks the depth that Mastercam/Moduleworks help files offer.

I would strongly consider NX if you want an integrated solution. All of these higher end CAM systems are going to be $20K+ for a complete multiaxis package and so it comes down to what you need.

 

[empower]

I've been using Hypermill for the past 7 months or so, and before that was a hardcore Mastercam fanboi.

Look, I still prefer Mastercam 100% of the time, and unfortunately cannot use it. So Hypermill just takes longer to do basically anything. Workflow, pretty similar to Mcam. However, where Hypermill falls short is...Volumill roughing strategies, 3x code filtering and smoothing, 5x point placement, 5x tilt avoid strategies (they don't really offer that much except model avoidance) and generally speaking, simple things are not good in Hypermill.

For collision avoidance, using the whole model as avoidance can be good. But it can also bog down the system when you don't really care about collisions. Additionally, the CAD tools compared to Mcam SUCK. And I have found that you need to generate a lot of drafting in order to get through a part. The chaining in Hypermill is god awful. I mean really just bad. Mastercam shines in chaining IMO. For Mcam Dynamic milling, you have a ton of strategies and they are all very easy to understand. For outside roughing in, simply choose that. In hypermill you can do it, but it is far less obvious and easy. For simply contouring, Mastercam is easier. It just is.

Another thing, everyhting in Hypermill is A La Carte. You want solid functionality? That will be an additional $2500. For real.

Hypermill is not a bad piece of software by any stretch, and it can do a lot. In fact, the Machine Simulation is exceptional, and I don't find a need at the moment for using Vericut even for simultaneous 5 axis stuff. Mastercam MachSim sucks out of the box. So, simulation is great. But I find that it lacks control in a lot of areas and that very much surprised me when I switched. Hypermill is always referred to as the King of 5 Axis CAM and while it is good, I simply think ModuleWorks toolpaths within Mastercam give you loads more control, options, and strategies compared. I just cant understand how Hypermill doesn't allow you to filter points....

Hypermill has crap documentation and little forum support, which is not optimal. I prefer hardcore documentation and while they do have decent Help in the manual, it lacks the depth that Mastercam/Moduleworks help files offer.

I would strongly consider NX if you want an integrated solution. All of these higher end CAM systems are going to be $20K+ for a complete multiaxis package and so it comes down to what you need.

i dont think hypermill is that different from NX in the ways you described, maybe you're just not familiar with how to do the things you know how to do in MC very well? there are PLENTY of collision avoidance strategies similar to MC, from chain, to chain, from point, to point, axis based, etc. really no different from MC.
i havent found chaining to be any better or worse than mastercam. they all lack compared to fusion or NX in that department.