Another New Toy

[beckley23]

In another topic in this forum, I mentioned that I had to rearrange the shop for a Series 60/61 16 X 78 lathe. The lathe is a little short of 13' long and about 4' deep and weighs approx 9200 LBS. I looked at the lathe approx 2-3 months ago, before it was listed on ebay, and had to decide if I could live without it, but most importantly, where to put it. While I was making my decision, I called my rigger to see if he could lift it, and he also quoted me a price, which was extremely reasonable. By the time I made my decision, the seller had listed it on ebay, it didn't sell, and then it went into his stores category. I contacted him a couple of times, and apparently he an offer, but the buyer didn't pick it up. One of my friend's is the seller's former employer, we all keep in contact and communicate and he told me the seller's bottom line, which was a tad bit more than I was thinking, but not unreasonable, and definitely not any where near the ebay price. I paid the bottom line, apparently I'm not the thief the seller thought I was.
Today was moving in day. Last Saturday the re-arrangement began. 2 surface grinders were relocated to the front of the shop, and several other pieces were shoved here and there, really making the shop barely usuable for a week. Fortunately it was light workload this week.
The tooling that came with the lathe; 15" 4 jaw, 12" 3 jaw, original 17" faceplate, steady rest, and a #18 Jacobs drill chuck, misc. wrenches. I have purchased on ebay a Dorian CA toolpost, and a CA 1-1/4" boring bar holder, and I'll make several other toolholders, but use the ones from the CY in the meantime.
Yesterday I finished learing a path to the lathe's new home, mainly moving the automatic bandsaw teporarily to the front of the shop where I normally park the 5000 LB Cat forklift.
The seller delivered the lathe this morning, and the rigger had it in place 45 minutes later, most of the time fine tuning the location. He spotted the lathe at approx 60* to the inal location, his forklift was too long to make the cut in the tight confines. He used my forklift to lift the lathe, via a webbed strap through the bed webbing on the tailstock end to spin the lathe to its final orientation. Then he used his forklift to pull the lathe about 2-1/2 feet closer to the front of the shop. No pictures of this part were taken, as I was otherwise occupied.

Pictures.
View of the shop from the office. A path was cleared from the overhead door, it's 14' X 14', to the rear of the shop. The oil spot, left of center, is approx where the headstock will be. There are paint lines at the upper right corner of the oil spot, and to the upper right corner of the UPS shipping table, for the tailstock end. The electrical cabinet for the #3 W&S is in the lower left corner, and the bar feeder has been removed(which is a story in itself).

All the stuff in the shop had to go somewhere. Believe or not there are 2 turret lathes in there-somewhere.

A better view of where the lathe is going. In this spot there 3 grinders, a 10 X 20 Landis Universal, accounts for the oil spot,and surface grinders, a Hardinge DV 59 and a couple shop tables. The Hardinge was several feet to the right of the window.

The surface grinders have been relocated to the front SW corner of the shop. This was the original location for the blue Norton when I moved here 16 years ago. The green #5 B&S was added later.

More pictures in the next post.
Harry

 

[beckley23]

The automatic bandsaw had to go somewhere, temporarily, along with more stuff. This is the SE corner of the shop, and the Cat forklift is normally parked here.

The lathe is in place.

Another view, and the automatic bandsaw is where it belongs.

The bar feeder for the #3 W&S on the left, has been reattached, the bar feeder to the right of the vertical bandsaw, belongs to the the #5 J&L. The vertical bandsaw is not staying there, and I a location in mind, will decide tomorrow.

Harry

 

[quasi]

thanks for the update, does that lathe really have a footprint width of 5 feet? It doesn't look that wide in the pictures. How many HP does it have? Can you keep all your other machines, or do you have to do the one in and one out shuffle?

Actually, with the mass of the 61, it might have to be one in and two out!

 

[Cal Haines]

Great post Harry. A lot of work moving all the stuff around to make room. My back is hurting just reading about it!

Cal

 

[beckley23]

To answer a few questions first. The motor is a U. S. Electric Motor 10 HP, 230/460 3 phase, 1800 RPM, 27+ amps, frame size is 324. The starter is Allen Bradley with low voltage control. The footprint is as I stated in the first post is 4' X 13'-, actully the pedestals are slightly smaller in width, but with the TA and handles it is just under 48". There are no machines that are leaving the shop, or are being replaced, at the present time. This may change in the future, but it is unlikely, unless somebody makes me an offer that I can't refuse. I bought this lathe because I wanted it, I also have potential jobs for it, one of which I'll being starting for the 3rd run on Monday. I'm getting tired of pulling and pushing the TS on the CY to load and unload parts about 2-1/2' each time. 120 times in a day and a half is getting to me, and the TS crank on the Series 60 looks pretty handy.

I've had a bit of time to start a detailed examination of the lathe, and I'm beginning to understand the late Jim Kizale's description "Super Lathe". I may have more comments on this later, but this model is not simply a newer version of the C series. It has been beefed up, significantly. For example, the bed is heavier built than the CY's, the TS is definitely heavier, etc.
I will make some changes to the machine, mostly in the electrical controls. I'm looking for a size 2 reversing starter, adding a coolant pump, and I'm going to have to something about changing chucks. The drive belts are in dire need of replacement, and the machine needs a detailed clean up.
The main concerns now are to get the lathe leveled, and running, so that I can do a more thorough inspection, and to finish getting the shop back together.

I've taken some more pictures today.
The cross slide on the this lathe is just an 1" or 2 shorter than the ways, compared to the CY's which is several inches shorter, (think a feature of "Super Lathe"). The cross slide and compound have had a run in or two with the chuck. The T nut for the Dorian toolpost needs a bit bit of fitting, it was too small for the CY. I don't what lathe the South Bend style cross slide stop fits, or why it's with this machine, all the Monarchs I've seen have the stop built into the dial assembly, and it won't clamp to the dovetail.

The bracket attached to the left rear saddle wing, I can only guess at its use. It's coming off, as is the bracket/adjuster attached to the right rear wing. In the second picture notice the TA bed bracket. First one I've seen that's not broken, and I do have the little rod, that is called appropriately "Bed Bracket Rod". I've always seen the little hole, but never the rod. Two firsts here.

Cable reel for the work light, they're both coming off.

Harry

 

[rke[pler]

That bracket on the right rear is for a Trav-a-dial. I've got a trav-a-dial if you want to check it out, if not you could flog the bracket on eBay for pocket change (or sell it to me, I can always stash another spare away somewhere).

 

[beckley23]

Russ,
I thought the bracket was for a Trav-A-Dial, but wasn't quite sure mainly due to the orientation. I think the little spring in the TA cover belongs to it, found it in the chip pan. It's a bad way to mount the Trav-A-Dial. It can get wiped out by the TA bed bracket,or the quick lock lever on the tailstock.

Here's Jim Kizale's discussion of "Super Lathes"
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=115875&highlight=super+lathe
Harry

 

[beckley23]

An Update

The lathe has been rough leveled, actually, I thought it was pretty good until the sun came through the window behind it and did its number. I've purchased a venetian blind for the window in hopes of eliminating this problem. As long I as don't use the lathe in the late afternoon, I'm OK, and as the seasons change so does late afternoon. All I've to do is get the blind installed.
There have been some minor relocations in the shop since the initial post, the vertical bandsaw was relocated to the front next to the grinders, a terrible location , and has since been relocated to the rear, behind the lathe, with the Hardinge being relocated under the window.
Surprisingly the shop seems a bit roomier now than before, although I'm still in the process of rearranging things. More stuff seems to find its way to the dumpster.

The process of getting the lathe up and running has begun. I've located a NOS(supposedly) GE #2 size 2 speed starter that can be wired for reversing, heaters have been ordered and the conduit, wiring and the misc necessaries for the electrics will be ordered next week. I've got the necessary transformers for the low voltage coils, coolant pump and the eventual DRO in stock. The electrics will be spliced into the circuit that feeds my #5 J&L 15 HP turret lathe.
The motor has been pulled, and is off to the motor shop next week for rehab. I was going to put new bearings in and clean it up, but when I saw missing insulation on the motor leads, off to the motor shop. The motor was easier to get out than the one's on the EE's. On the EE's I had to get the forks of my small forklift under the motor mounting plate, lift it up and back the forklift out, not an easy job given the confined spaces in the EE. On the SE 60, just remove the bolts, put 2 4's next to the base topped with sheet metal and pull it out, then get the forklift. Fortunately, Monarch installed very long leads to do this, as there is no pecker head on the motor, there isn't room inside the base for one. I'll have to get a picture of the motor.
For once I didn't have to fight the motor sheave getting it off, although I was ready. Loosed one set screw, tried to put the hub puller on, it kept slipping off, the jaws need to be reworked slightly, got a wrecking bar gave it a nudge and it almost shot across the floor. Didn't see any fretting on the motor shaft.
Checked the MSC catalog for belt pricing, B-94's, and was staggered by their pricing. The cheapest I saw was about 30.00. Called my bearing supplier and got belts for approx 13.00, much more reasonable, but they may get me on frieght.
The disassembly and clean up of the drive compartment have started. After removal of the motor, the clutch and drive sheave have to be removed. So far I've gotten the clutch out and the sheave is next. This is a little more time consuming than I anticipated, the dried grease and belt detritus had to be removed from the clutch before the clutch plates could be removed. The pressure plate may have to be replaced, it has about 1/16" wear, which I think was caused by excessive dried grease preventing proper separation of the plates, but the jury is still out on this one.
Pictures
The section of the headstock cover you don't see. I was surpised by the amount of cross bracing cast into it. There is a 1/2-13 tapped hole at the X intersection for an eye bolt, which is how I lifted it off with my small forklift. The reason I took the cover off was to see where the oil level was, the sight glass on the rear of the headstock had been painted over. Although I cleaned it off, I couldn't tell if I was looking at oil or staining. The oil was/is over overfilled by about a gallon.

The inside of the headstock. It is 26" long approx. The bull has a 2" wide face, to give some perspective.

This is the clutch between the bull gear and the "Large and small spindle drive gear", with small one showing in the picture. It's hard to see but the corners of the clutch teeth are a bit chewed, probably from inadvertent shifts on the fly. I know I try avoid this, but every now and then it happens. The only potential problem I see here, is that this gear is used in the 8 highest speeds, and the load carrying capability may be affected.

The end gears. The gearbox has its own pump, and the sump is filled to overflowing, which explains the oil spot on the floor, before I rough leveled the lathe and got this end up.

Harry

 

[beckley23]

One more picture.
The spindle drive sheave and clutch. If you can't see details, that's for 2 reasons; one my camera isn't the best nor am I the best photographer, and two, most importantly, that's how dirty it is. The insides are painted, I beleive yellow, and that should show up.

Harry

 

[beckley23]

Went in to the shop today with the express purpose of getting the drive and electrical compartments cleaned up, which was accomplished. It took about 5 hours. It's not an eat off your floor clean, but it is clean enough that I won't get filthy working on the machine in the future, but my wife can always tell when I've been cleaning a machine.
I basically clean my machines by scraping the scrapable dirt/grunge off, followed by preliminary brush down with a solvent, usually kerosene or mineral spirits followed by a water soluble cleaning solution. I use Castrol Kleen 3625, it's the best of the cleaners I've found, and it is expensive, but it gives the best bang for the buck, IMO. This is some strong stuff, so be aware.
Due to the size of the project, there is a lot of surface area, I also sprayed( read compressed air, and this is the only time I ever use compressed air to clean a machine) the Castrol with a syphon gun to speed things up, in conjunction with a fan to blow the spray away from me. The only place I had use to exercise extreme caution, was around the exposed bearings of the input shaft.
All the parts of the clutch and sheave assemblies have been cleaned, and would be reassembled, except for the replacement of a missing snap ring.

A couple more pictures.
What the parts sheet doesn't show are the 2 pipes on the left, of the "Bearing sleeve" and the 4 screws attaching the sleeve to the headstock. The lower pipe has a grease fitting, and the upper pipe has a relief valve. The sheave assembly slides over the sleeve and is held in place with a snap ring. The missing snap ring holds the pulley shaft, in the center of the sleeve, in place and goes next the bearing inside the sleeve.

The motor did have a peckerhead, you can tell by the shadow of the outline, but it had to be removed. There is no way the motor would go into the compartment with it mounted. The wire connections are made underneath the middle cover. The cover is held on by 4 screws on each side, and I made the mistake of taking it off. The 5 digit number that you see is the lathe's serial number,; whether Monarch put the number on, or the original owner replaced the motor, I couldn't tell.

Harry

 

[j king]

Thats going to be a nice machine Harry.

 

[beckley23]

J King, I'm pushing to get this lathe running so I can find out what I've got. Everything I've seen so far is good, nothing really major is wrong or unexpected for a lathe that's 54 years old.

Well, the snap ring I thought was missing is missing, but it doesn't go where I said it did. That groove is a relief groove, with a radiused bottom about 1/8" wide. The snap ring goes in a groove behind the bearing, I guess to keep the bearing from getting jammed on a slightly larger diameter directly behind it. Put a snap ring on and tried to slide the bearing sleeve on, but it was a no go. Off comes the snap ring, and then I fully assembled the rest of the parts. I had to relocate a spacer from the inside of the cone ring to the outside to get the clutch to operate correctly. That's the way it came apart, and I thought that the original owners had misassembled the parts, but now I understand.
All of the electrical switch gear has been mounted, and the other electricals have been picked up. I think it time to call my electrican friends and get this lathe wired up. Oh yes, I still need to get the motor back and installed.
Harry

 

[qualitymachinetools]

Harry,
Looks like you are moving along with it. Hope you get it running soon!
I had one of those exact machines one time, same exact color and everything, and it was a beast.
Its down in South Carolina now. It was originally in a John Deere plant.
I am sure you will like that machine, they are really a nice heavy lathe.

 

[beckley23]

Well, the week started off with a call from the motor shop. To make a long story short, the motor that went to the shop is not the motor that came back. It seems the motor leads, with the cracked and missing insulation, went too deep into the windings for the shop to easily get to them without a complete rewind. The shop offered me some alternative motors, none of which seemed attractive after checking the frame and shaft sizes in the motor book, shaft diameter and length play a major part here. The original had a 1-5/8" D shaft 5-1/2" long. This necessiated a call to Monarch and I wound up talking to Scott. I explained the situation, and asked what was the largest horsepower motor I could put in the lathe. Scott explained that they normally put 10 HP in the machine, but if I could get a larger motor in there it would handle it. I'm thinking a 15 HP, because thats the size motor in the #5 J&L, and the lathe is being wired into that circuit. The motor book shows a 254T frame motor that comes pretty close to matching what I need without too much trouble or extra expense. Called the motor shop and 10 minutes later I had 15 HP 254T frame motor. All I needed to do was make some adaptor rails and install the motor.

The new motor and one of the adaptor rails. Notice the clearance cut out in the motor foot, it's there so I can get a socket wrench on the screw, after everything is in place. It's still pretty tight in the motor compartment. The second picture is the compartment, the original motor almost totally filled the compartment.

While I had Scott on the phone, I asked about the "missing snap ring". I explained that I tried to slip the bearing sleeve over the snap ring with a no go, and asked if they used a different ring. Scott pulled the assembly drawing(s) and explained to me that the snap ring went on after the sleeve was attached to the headstock, then the bearing was pressed in. He then went on to say that the part print didn't say what type of retaining ring was used, it could be the type we're used to seeing or a 2 piece retaining ring, which was easy to get on, but getting it off was a different story. After hearing this, the question I didn't ask was the most important: how do you get the bearing out to get to the retaining ring to get it out; because if you can't get the bearing out you aren't going to get the bearing sleeve off, etc., etc. This may all be academic, as you shall soon see; but I think I know how they get the bearing out.

Bearing sleeve with the 88508 bearing removed, and snap ring in place.

88508 bearing against the snap ring as it's supposed to be. Keep the hole to the left in mind, it's going to present a problem and questions. Also notice the first groove, to the left of the inner race, is barely visible.

Continued in next post.
Harry

 

[beckley23]

This is how the groove appears without the snap ring, but the bearing in place, pushed against the shoulder formed by the larger diameter to the right. Notice that the groove is wider, by about .073".

The "clutch hub and backplate" in place. The Allen wrench is in the set screw, which is firmly seated in the hole in the shaft, as it's supposed to be; but, and this is very important, the snap ring had to be removed in order to seat the set screw. With the snap ring in place, the hub was .073" further to the left, and the set screw wouldn't seat. This presents a question; is the 88508 bearing the right bearing? 88xxx bearings have the inner race extended on both sides, on the 88508 it 3MM (.1181")per side. Switch to an 87xxx bearing, the inner race is extended on one side only. If an 87508 bearing is used there is a gap of approx. .045", that may have to be accounted for. It looks like another call is needed.

The bearing sleeve with the 88508 bearing removed. Notice the brass plugs on each side of the hole. These plugs are sealing the holes drilled into the casting that connect to the lubrication pipes on the left. The grease comes in the lower pipe, circulates around a groove on the OD of the sleeve and exits through the relief valve in the upper pipe. I think the 88508 bearing is removed by hydraulic pressure if the OD groove is sealed up, and the relief valve blocked off, it just depends on tight the plugs are.

I don't normally do this, but I am impressed with some snap ring pliers I bought, and will eventually add to the inventory. I've used the cheapies in the past, and for the most part they were/are barely usuable. A few months ago, I got a job that I just didn't feel like fighting and cursing the tool, so I bought I Knipex brand snap ring pliers, and I've been adding to my collection as the need arises. This lathe has some very large snap rings, and I wanted a decent tool. The 3 in the lower left arethe Knipex.

Harry

 

[yoyo]

I agree on the Knipex as a nice quality brand. I started with the wire cutters for two decades ago and almost all of my pliers are Knipex since then.
For the snap rings I bought a universal tool with interchangeable beaks first but these are not sturdy enough, snap rings flying around etc.
The knipex are very good, although the full set uses up quite some place on my toolboard.

 

[Steve in SoCal]

Regarding snap-ring tools, I have a tool for larger snap-rings that is a real pleasure to use. It is available from McMaster and I highly recommend it.

Looking good Harry; that motor hole reminds me of the K&T, that one is stuffed tightly too.

Steve

 

[beckley23]

Steve,
I've got 2 K&T's and have serviced several others, believe me when I tell you that the K&T motor compartments are wide open compared to this lathe with a 324-4 frame motor installed.


To the others reading this topic;
Monarch's parts manual regarding the retaining ring discussed above is very bad. There is no way that anybody could determine, from looking at the manual, that the installation of the bearing sleeve was done in the manner I described. One would need the assembly drawing that Scott was looking at. I was fortunate that I was able to remove the sleeve as easily as I did because the snap/retaining ring wasn't there, I'm afraid others may not be so fortunate.
Harry

 

[beckley23]

Talked to Scott at Monarch today, and he confirmed the 88508 bearing is the correct bearing and that the set screw in the clutch hub seats in the hole. After a bit of discussion, he suggested that the lathe may have left Monarch without the retaining ring. I proposed that the only reason for the retaining ring was to keep the bearing and hub from moving towards the tailstock when the clutch was engaged, a redundancy when the set screw is considered. I also asked about removal of the bearing with hydraulic pressure , concentrating on how tight the brass plugs were in their holes. He responded that the plugs were very tightly driven in, and doubted that hydraulics would be successful in forcing them out.
With the above in mind, I decided to put the assembly back together the way it came apart. It ran for 54 years like that, it'll run another 54 years. Now it's back to the electricals. I also have to get some longer belts, the B-94's are too short, and B-96's should work, if not, I'll put some risers under the rails to make them work.(I go this every time I change a motor, I can never get the belts right on the first go around.)
Harry

 

[beckley23]

Finally got to run the lathe yesterday. Although the top speed is 1000 RPM, I only took it up to 600, I'm still a little nervous with the 15-1/2" 4 jaw on the spindle. This a quiet running lathe, and I was surprised that it got quieter as the speed increased, which is directly opposite of the noise level on the 16" CY. You could hold a conversation without to much trouble. I suspect that after the oil is changed, this will change. I don't think the oil that was in the headstock was correct; I think it was way oil with a higher viscosity.
The main issue I've been considering lately is the chuck changing system, which is proving to be a little more involved that I expected. There have been a few suggestions made, the most interesting being an articulated arm, which definitely beats the way I conjured up. All it needs is a little refinement.
Sorry, no pictures at this time.
Harry