Antiquated machine tooling distribution! Dear Tooling mfgs get with the time!

[partsproduction]

What they charge depends on who you are.Edwin Dirnbeck

That was writing of UPS charges I think. A few thoughts;

I'm nobody, my business is very small now. When I need something fast I use MSC, they get orders to me from Reno in one or two days max, at basic ground rates, which is what the people in Portland do, but the Portland tooling store's UPS costs way more for some reason.

As for the time and expense of driving up there, my wife does that and her car is very frugal on gas needs, plus we try to have at least two errands for her to run in a day which cuts the gas price in half.

As for DHL, I like them a lot, AFAIK they are not union, which thrills me as I despise unions and all marxist tentacles. I also think they are slightly cheaper than UPS. UPS had a strike many years ago which meant dozens of my parts rusted inside their truck for about two weeks.
I believe in forgiving individuals, but not organizations. My experience with their insurance has been that UPS always fight against paying it, which pure aggravation is far more costly than whatever they should pay, though a refund's never happened to me from UPS. I would agree that it was the union that should have paid for the rusted parts but that would never happen.

As for buying from distributors instead of ebay, there are many distributors who use ebay as a selling platform, and among the perks you get an email the day of or the day before shipping, plus it's easy to tell who insists on using UPS by the shipping price shown in the ad before hand.

Since I mentioned confirmation emails, one seller in Portland sends confirmation notices the same day, within minutes of filing the order. That makes me think it's an automated process. OTH I ordered some acetal rod from another seller last week, and they don't send confirmation notices, so I didn't get to look at one and see that the salesman "heard" 5/8" diameter when I know I said 1 and 5/8" diameter. That has happened two or three other times, so the tool people's auto confirm feature is great in my book.

As to "too much trouble" for a company to send via USPS, stamps.com is a USPS offering that allows a company to print prepaid labels for a one time fee of $17.99 ad the postage is a monthly total of charges (Unless I have it wrong), no trip to the post office and cheapskates like me would love it!

It used to be that all first class USPS packages we sent were the same anywhere in the US, but lately they charge a few cents more for packages that are on the East coast (Padded envelopes 8X6").
parts

 

[jccaclimber]

I'm glad someone mentioned McMaster Carr. Machine tools are just as bad. I bought a few things (band saw and maybe $10k of assorted mainly US made mill and lathe tooling) from the local guy in Dallas a few years ago. Took three tries to get the quote right, he seemed to think I should be thankful he was doing it at all, took weeks to get any of it, and then billed me separately for freight to his business and then again to our place a few miles away.

The next place I was at we bought everything from McMaster, MSC, hell, even Grainger was easy to work with compared to this guy. We had our stuff faster and by the time you account for the fact that I didn't need to spend 4 hours on the phone and pay freight twice it was cheaper too.

I don't mind when places require an account *if* they also sell through McMaster or whoever. Want to deal direct, set up an account. Want to be fast, loose, and use a CC, here's our part # for McMaster Carr.

Even when the local tool place is good, it still takes time. For example, I want a bunch of Deltronic pins (I like their product and they're nice on the phone, but I have to go through a local distributor. I have a person at the local distributor, we'll call her Ms. V. She's great, 90% of the time it's a same day reply. Problem is I email her, she verifies availability at Deltronic, then quotes to me, I verify, confirm, and then she places the order. Alternatively I call Deltronic to verify availability, then call her and let her know it's all good and just ship what you have if it's an issue. I still need to wait for quote, verify, etc. Even when it works there's still 2 or 3 emails and a half day of delay. Get someone else in the office because she's on vacation and half the time the wrong thing shows up.

 

[jaguar36]

Pick up the phone, talk to a human, get some human contact. you need some (as we all do)

The thinking that phone is somehow more important than email is the kind of antiquated practice that is the issue.

If I know what I want, having to waste time on the phone as well as risking someone hearing me/writing it down wrong is just silly. Suppliers need to learn that both methods of communication are equally valuable, or they will lose business to someone who does.

I needed some unistrut the other day. My local metal supplier carries it, but to order it I've got to go somewhere quiet, call them, wait for them to write up a quote and approve it. Instead I just spent 10 seconds ordering it from Grainger's app and had it the next day. Probably was more expensive, but it was worth it.

 

[fmari --MariTool-]

Having a "good" e-commerce website especially for this industry is not an easy task. I probably have over 1 million invested in mine, and i started out with an open source template. Now ours is unrecognizable and heavily modded from front end functionality and shopping cart tech that the customer sees to backend technology that helps us efficiently list products and maintain inventory. If you do it correctly it never ends. We have a full whiteboard of future projects and current projects to make the shopping experience better and keep the customers coming back.

Starting from scratch is a huge undertaking, you can't just download pdf pages anymore and ask customers to call for pricing and stock information. Yet that is what some companies still do.

 

[TeachMePlease]

Having a "good" e-commerce website especially for this industry is not an easy task. I probably have over 1 million invested in mine, and i started out with an open source template. Now ours is unrecognizable and heavily modded from front end functionality and shopping cart tech that the customer sees to backend technology that helps us efficiently list products and maintain inventory. If you do it correctly it never ends. We have a full whiteboard of future projects and current projects to make the shopping experience better and keep the customers coming back.

Starting from scratch is a huge undertaking, you can't just download pdf pages anymore and ask customers to call for pricing and stock information. Yet that is what some companies still do.

I've always enjoyed your website. Just last week I placed my first ever order from you, some rubber sealed ER11 collets. The website was pleasant to use, and the collets are superb quality. So thanks for that!

 

[DanielG]

For tooling, setup an account and develop a working relationship with one of the great Portland area tooling vendors. They will beat all the internet prices and they know what is the right fit for what you're doing, they know lead times and the current state of supply issues with different manufacturers. They deliver same day or you'll have it the following day UPS.

Meanwhile in the other Portland, our tooling vendors never call people back and don't stock any machining stuff even if they would. All they seem to stock is janitorial supplies. And when you do finally get a quote out of them, it's more expensive than the online vendors.

 

[fmari --MariTool-]

I've always enjoyed your website. Just last week I placed my first ever order from you, some rubber sealed ER11 collets. The website was pleasant to use, and the collets are superb quality. So thanks for that!

Great to hear! We love getting new customers. Thank you for your support.

 

[CarbideBob]

Having a "good" e-commerce website especially for this industry is not an easy task. I probably have over 1 million invested in mine, and i started out with an open source template..

Ouch, that is a lot of $100 holders and $10 endmills at a 10 to 15% margin.
One million over how many years?
Just curious if you want to tell (or brag) . How many dollars in machine tools, grinders and inspection stuff on your shop floor?
When you started out I gave you a 1 in 10 chance of making it.
You have done wonders.
Bob

 

[fmari --MariTool-]

I spend roughly 80k/year on code and maintenance.
Yea this business is all about long term investing. I didn't make a penny or draw a salery for 5 years, I just kept on reinvesting. When I stock a new product line it typically stays in the red for 3-4 years. Then it starts turning a profit and you just have to maintain stock and keep on eye on the quick movers for that particular item.

Also products feed of off other products. carry more endmills and you will sell more endmill holders. Carry more carbide saws and you will sell more saw arbors.

In the begining I never wanted to sell cutting tools. But I quickly realized "hard tooling" doesn't bring the customer back quick enough like consumables. Common sence stuff.

 

[helocat]

Having a "good" e-commerce website especially for this industry is not an easy task. I probably have over 1 million invested in mine, and i started out with an open source template. Now ours is unrecognizable and heavily modded from front end functionality and shopping cart tech that the customer sees to backend technology that helps us efficiently list products and maintain inventory. If you do it correctly it never ends. We have a full whiteboard of future projects and current projects to make the shopping experience better and keep the customers coming back.

Starting from scratch is a huge undertaking, you can't just download pdf pages anymore and ask customers to call for pricing and stock information. Yet that is what some companies still do.

I am with you on our retail side for a website. We were similar using dedicated software we had to have hosted, then kept making things custom. It become this beast that was a huge PITA to update and it ran slow. About 8yrs ago we switched to an enterprise level off the shelf service, in our case Big Commerce. It was about $50k to rebuild it onto that platform but so worth it. Did another refresh about 2yrs ago and that was only $15k or so as the data already existed. Now lets talk ERP systems..... uggg. Switched from QuickBooks Enterprise to NetSuite 3yrs ago. Has taken us just about that long to get it dialed in, and easily $100k. But the flexibility of just about any API integration is seamless so way worth it as we build out our brands for the next 10yrs.

Its that ERP integration that is key for any brand selling on line to have that visible inventory availability and to receive and process orders quickly.

 

[guythatbrews]

In days gone by the manufacturer/ distributor seemed to work better. More knowledge there and more professionalism. Seems those days are going away and distributors are adding less value all the time.

In my area 3 main distributors. 1 very good, 1 pretty good. 1 awful. The awful one is a last resort since they hire clueless idiots for cheap. A $10/hr guy just wastes my time not going there.

The other two really don't add value for me, but at least they are reliable. They stock less and less product. They might have drills or endmills I need but usually not my first choice so I've got to settle for less. They've all got outside salesmen but only one ever pays a call. So it seems they are really only there to take my order and skim their bit out of the middle. Not unusual for them not to be able to answer more detailed tooling questions. Understandable since there is a lot of stuff out there. But not my problem. I call the manufacturer tech support, get my questions answered and check stock, then usually email the distributor an order and request confirmation. it works pretty good and they are responsive. I NEVER go to the distributor for tech support. It just ain't there. So if they stock less and less and no tech support what is the value added for ME? The answer is nothing. Really less than nothing because they add more work for me.

And don't ask about UPS and FedEx. I'm not in a very good area but FedEx doesn't care. They'll throw out a box in the rain any time day or night weekends too they just don't care. UPS still has a bit of professionalism my regular guy is great but subs less so. Subs just throw a box in the door and run. If I'm lucky I find it when I need it.

 

[moonlight machine]

This is the way the whole world used to be before the internet.
I bought a lot of weirdo stuff since the late 70s, and learned to jump thru these exact hoops.
Call, (they never answer emails) the sales rep or outside salesman.
Open an account- big deal- I had a one page sheet that had all the info they wanted on it, just print em off and hand em to em.
Back in the day, there were tons of things that you simply could not buy any other way.
And, usually with an account, you get better pricing anyway.

I use mostly Klingspor abrasives, for example, in the shop for almost 40 years.
Got an account in maybe 1985. Ever since, I get wholesale pricing, just call up and order, and they bill monthly.
Much easier and cheaper than MSC, in my book.

Off the topic, sorry. Do you think Klingspor quality has slipped? Seems like they don't last as long as they used to.

 

[Ries]

Off the topic, sorry. Do you think Klingspor quality has slipped? Seems like they don't last as long as they used to.

In general, no, quality doesnt seem to have slipped. There are a few things that are so competitive that they have a lower priced, not as good version, just to compete- I see that mainly with flap discs. The old Klingspors had a fiberglas backer, and they lasted really well. Now, they are made in Poland or somewhere cheaper, with a cheaper plastic back, and they do seem to go quicker. Cheap chinese flap discs are five bucks, and if Klingspor still made the really good ones, they would probably be something like 12. But the base abrasives are still great, for my uses- I mainly use the CS 411 which is a zirconia alumina and I use discs and belts of this a lot, on both stationary and hand power tools, and it seems to me to be equal quality as the early 90s. And they have a wide range of specialty stuff, like made to order scotchbrite belts, or flap discs, I like a lot.

 

[Brett W]

Be nice if the Klingspor local sales guy would bother responding to my email right after he came to my shop to get him to buy his products. The Pearl Abrasives guy has called to check on me, ask if I had any questions, etc.

 

[Ries]

Outside Sales Reps? pretty relevant to original topic.
I used to live 15 minutes from Klingspor's west coast warehouse, in the early 90s. Thats the last time I ever saw a klingspor rep.
In general, in the 80s and early 90s, when I was in LA and adjacent, was the last era or outside sales reps, in my experience. They have declined every year since.
They were sometimes annoying, sometimes helpful, and they did usually leave scratch pads and pens, in my area they are very rare.
I do still have one for my main non-ferrous supplier, but I am only 2 hours or so from their office.
But if a very small concern (maritool) spends $80k a year on website, a big company is going to be spending double or triple or more, and thats 2 or 3 reps salaries right there.

 

[KBCTOOLS]

I am sure you have a great local tooling supplier - so may not apply to you.

Tooling distribution rant:

What is with tooling companies sticking with the "regional vendors", sheesh its 2022. Trying to get a indexable radius end mill. Find one by Ingersoll Cutting Tools, but no online vendors offering it. Must contact "local rep". That was over the weekend so of course they are not open. Send email asking for pricing and availability. Almost the end of the 1st business day and still no responce. Yes I am being impatient as it has not been a full 24 business hours, but I have to get this part cutting. I am just going with a non-indexable EM that I can order from MSC and know I will have it first thing Wednesday. But if they allowed on-line sales of it, they would have my $$ two days ago.

But yikes it's crazy out there. Bought some tools from good'ol KBC tools online, but my order was held due to them wanting me to call them back and set up "an account" vrs. just ship the order. Talked to them on the phone, "due to the $$ amount we want you to set up an account". My responce was cancel the order if needed, I dont wish to set up an account. They ran my card and shipped the order but it was crazy days late. Did a basic machine tool order again with them but it sat for 8 days. I emailed to cancel the order and they said it was shipping today. That probably is my last order attempt with them.

My company sells B2C everyday via a website. If we dont process an order and ship ASAP, we will lose that order. If we only took orders via the phone, we would lose a ton of orders. Modern customer has been trained by Amazon - hate Amazon or love it does not matter, the customer out there has evolved.

Again I know I am being impatient, but if I go "meh it will get here when it gets here", my competitor will have my customers. So ya I am impatient.

/end rant.

Hey Helocat,

Sorry to hear you had a not stellar experience with ordering online. Usually things go pretty smoothly as we get 98.8% of all in stock orders out the same day with a few orders coming in after shipping cut off times and a few declined credit cards awaiting updated expiry dates. Of course over the past few years we have seen some dips in delivery times due to courier issues. We primarily use FedEx, so they are really on top their game with Mother Nature giving them a good run for their deadlines once in a while.

We've added some software behind the scenes to speed up the approval of credit card orders, and this should really help.

I'd love to hear more from you so we can work towards improving our service.

Happy tooling around,
Paula
KBC Tools & Machinery

 

[DDoug]

Hey Helocat,

Sorry to hear you had a not stellar experience with ordering online. Usually things go pretty smoothly as we get 98.8% of all in stock orders out the same day with a few orders coming in after shipping cut off times and a few declined credit cards awaiting updated expiry dates. Of course over the past few years we have seen some dips in delivery times due to courier issues. We primarily use FedEx, so they are really on top their game with Mother Nature giving them a good run for their deadlines once in a while.

We've added some software behind the scenes to speed up the approval of credit card orders, and this should really help.

I'd love to hear more from you so we can work towards improving our service.

Happy tooling around,
Paula
KBC Tools & Machinery

Paula,
This isn't a good way to introduce yourself, dredging up old postings.
There are better ways to post here.
Maritool and others come to mind, read their postings, understand their methods, follow them.

 

[Terry Keeley]

Paula,
This isn't a good way to introduce yourself, dredging up old postings. The belt sander one is worse when it comes
to credibility.
There are better ways to post here.

You might be right but I gotta say Paula (founder's daughter and current President) and her team at KBC here in Mississauga have been fantastic. I'm often amazed at their stock levels of small, hard to find stuff and if a price is cheaper elsewhere they'll usually match it.

I'm just a home shop guy but have been a customer for 30 years, very happy with their service and glad to see her on here.

 

[lucky7]

^^^^ agree. 30+ years here. Western Canada.