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Any benefits in mounting the tool post on the cross slide and removing the compound (Schaublin 135)

marcsO

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 24, 2020
Location
SURREY
I've been scratching my head for a while over this and a recent You Tube video by Stefan Gotteswinter has sparked my thinking again.

My 135 is now running smoothly following some renovation and modifications to the Variator system, I still have issues with high speed selection but this seems to be down to voltage loss via the Phase Convertor on my feed to the workshop so thats a job for another day. The machine works fine with the speed ranges I have currently and as a result I have been playing and machining a few parts and have found other than setting my compound slide at 30º its rarely used, it tends to get in the way when the star wheel is slid up and due to some gib wear the motion is stiff at the end of its travel so ideally a bit of work scraping is required which I have no experience of nor fancy tackling right now.

I currently have a Multifix A tool post with three holders, these came with the machine and various forum comments do seem to indicate it's on the small side for this machines capabilities so have been considering the E size. The challenge with the A and the E is the tool height is right at the lower limit of the tool post and gives no room for manoeuvre. Schaublin did sell as an accessory a compound made for use with the Multifix system but they cannot be bought now and I have never seen one for sale used nor fancy making one either so the removal of the compound and making a solid tool post mount to fit the cross slide would give me scope to use the E version and provide more rigidity in the cutting abilities.

I would be keen to hear if anyone has done this on any lathe, benefits and drawbacks etc and, if anyone has done this to a 135, I would be interested to see how you made the fixed tool post mount and the results.

Marc
 

marcsO

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 24, 2020
Location
SURREY
Peter thank you for your reply and information, I have spoken to you in the past and appreciate your willingness to help and advise.

The Schaublin 135 is a heavy duty machine with a 4+KW output and hence the thoughts around moving up from the A size to larger, overall I think using a tool holder with more 'substance' would be better suited to this machine, ultimately if Multifix does not work then another style might although going for the solid tool post mount on the cross slide would match the Multifix positioning system better than most IMO.

Are there only 2 tool holders in your revised format, I cannot really see any others with the donation marked on your PDF? Also is the *3 the items you suggest with the A? If so might be worth adjusting your wording as its states *2 :-)

Marc
 

PeWeTools4USA

Plastic
Joined
Feb 28, 2022
Hi Marc,
*3 is a mistake, it is *2.
The special designed holders are just in the size A because based on my experience after over 70,000 sold Multifix items, older machines which need the size A are the machines with the most problems regarding ths distance of the compound rest to the center line.
4kW is very clear............ not size A. The size A is usual only approved up to a drive power of 2.0kW / 2.6hp and because better material, the size A of two suppliers (me and a second peoducer) are approved up to 2.2kW / 3hp but of course not for 4kW. Here you must have the size E. How many millimeter is the distance and how wide id the compound rest?

Peter Wendlandt
 

marcsO

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 24, 2020
Location
SURREY
Peter the compound width is 95mm and the top of the compound slide to centre is 26mm which is where the issue is, for a large machine this last distance is small IMO.

Schaublin made a special compound slide for Multifix, not sure of the tool holder size it was designed for but it was one of the original sizes made by Multifix at the time (60 years ago) so guess maybe the B, these (special compound) are not generally available which is the reason for my exploring alternative ways to fix the E - fixed solid tool post holder mounted on the cross slide where I can make the item to suit the centre requirements of the E tool post.
 

PeWeTools4USA

Plastic
Joined
Feb 28, 2022
.................26mm....... this would be o.k. for the E-holder type ED16100

E = size of the system
D = holder type for tools with a rectangular shank
16 = max. height of the tools (16mm / 5/8")
100 = length of the holder

If Schaublin really made a special compound rest, then yes, it must be the size B because the size E was created in the second half of the 80´s and not earlier (but B is too large).

Peter Wendlandt
 
Joined
Jan 15, 2005
Location
The Netherlands
to come back to your original question
I think you already listed the pro and cons
Pro is being able to use a bigger Multifix or any other type
pro is better stability
Con is No taper turning
Con is No 30dgr setting when threading
Con is No adjusting of the position of the tool compared to the carriage
There were lathes without a compound
Les inovations mecanique come to mind
Peter
 

marcsO

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 24, 2020
Location
SURREY
Peter as always appreciate the information, threading at 30º is not a requisite unless its a deep large one so not really worried about that it was just more around if anyone else has had the thought and gone ahead with this 'alteration' to see the outcome and how the solid toolpsst holder was designed and shaped etc.

I am also considering a 2 axis DRO again something which does not really work well when a compound is used, on this topic anyone fitted a DRO to a 135 (or is there a thread somewhere on this forum) that can share the process and the system used?

Marc
 

neanderthal mach

Hot Rolled
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Location
princeton b.c.
I'm 99% sure Stefan added his solid riser block to replace the top slide after watching this ROBRENZE video.
If anyone is pushing there manual machine tools to there absolute maximum accuracy limits it would be Robin. And not many here would consider a Hardinge HLV as a light weight flexible lathe even with the OEM top slide. How you do it would be mostly specific to that Schaublin, but I'd keep in mind the force vectors and the directions they exert those into the rest of the lathe components while designing something to fit. In my opinion any top slide because of the limited vertical space available is in general the weak link for rigidity. There's also lots of Youtube videos showing very large mostly manual lathes in operation machining items such as rolls for steel mills, large ship propulsion shafts etc. Few to none ever have anything like a top slide mounted or even qctp's. Almost all cutting tools seem to be solidly mounted to tool holder blocks directly mounted to the lathes cross slide.
 

MCritchley

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Location
Milwaukee
I would lose my mind without a compound on a manual lathe, especially on a small tool room model.

You would really paint your self in a corner with out having the quick 3rd axis to reposition a tool quickly. The HLV-H really sucks for between centers work, I am constantly repositioning the compound to get the tool where I need it with center work.

The obvious reason for the compound is taper turning and proper threading. Those tasks seem to come up every week or so for me so I would not want to schlep my compound on and off for a bit of ridgidity on a small lathe. One thing that helps rigidity is having a good fitting gib in the compound. Most don’t have provisions for lubrication so they wear easily.




The Hardinge doesn’t have a bunch of room between the compound and spindle, so I use 1/2” stick tooling.

Edit:
Also, after pondering over Robins video I noticed his collection of mounted boring bars are in the conveiniant v groove and set screw quick change holder.
If he was really after the ultimate in rigidity he would be mounting his bars in the un used sleeve holders in the very back of his pile.
It’s best to clamp boring bars by a shrinking collar if you want to cut with out the bar bouncing off the one set screw in the front of a holder.
Pounding a boring bar with a few set screws into a v groove is not getting the most out of a boring bar.

To summarize, the solid mount is somewhat of a not that versatile attachment that might not solve rigidity problems.
 
Last edited:

guythatbrews

Stainless
Joined
Dec 14, 2017
Location
MO, USA
I have the a size aloris on my 10ee. Plenty good for what I do but I'd like to get a multifix someday (if the stars ever align) and seems like the A size multifix is pretty diminutive so I can see why you want to go to E. You've got to decide how much you'd miss your compound. Another reason that helped me decide without a compound the cross slide threading stop useless, and I like that thing.

I also saw Robin's vid and thought about making the tool block. I decided I would miss the compound rest too much. As a compromise to stiffen up the compound I put two clamp screws pushing on pins with 30 degree angle ends that push on the gib and help eliminate play when the compound isn't being used. Works pretty well.

As Mcrichtley said lubing the compound dovetail is tough, and that has always annoyed me. So while it was off I drilled the top of the compound rest on each side for oil cups. Then small holes that connect to the ways. I put a felt at the bottom of the cup hole so oil doesn't just run out. When I get round to scraping the compound I'll add oil grooves to the bottom of the rest.
 

PeWeTools4USA

Plastic
Joined
Feb 28, 2022
I have the a size aloris on my 10ee. Plenty good for what I do but I'd like to get a multifix someday (if the stars ever align) and seems like the A size multifix is pretty diminutive so I can see why you want to go to E. You've got to decide how much you'd miss your compound. Another reason that helped me decide without a compound the cross slide threading stop useless, and I like that thing.

I also saw Robin's vid and thought about making the tool block. I decided I would miss the compound rest too much. As a compromise to stiffen up the compound I put two clamp screws pushing on pins with 30 degree angle ends that push on the gib and help eliminate play when the compound isn't being used. Works pretty well.

As Mcrichtley said lubing the compound dovetail is tough, and that has always annoyed me. So while it was off I drilled the top of the compound rest on each side for oil cups. Then small holes that connect to the ways. I put a felt at the bottom of the cup hole so oil doesn't just run out. When I get round to scraping the compound I'll add oil grooves to the bottom of the rest.
Hi guythatbrews,
normal the drive power of a 10ee is too big for the size A. The size A is usual only approved up to a drive power of 2.0kW / 2.6hp and because better material, the size A of two suppliers (me and a second producer) are approved up to 2.2kW / 3hp but of course you have to check your motor, maybe somebody changed to a smaller version.

Peter Wendlandt
 
Joined
Jan 15, 2005
Location
The Netherlands
Hi guythatbrews,
normal the drive power of a 10ee is too big for the size A. The size A is usual only approved up to a drive power of 2.0kW / 2.6hp and because better material, the size A of two suppliers (me and a second producer) are approved up to 2.2kW / 3hp but of course you have to check your motor, maybe somebody changed to a smaller version.

Peter Wendlandt
In fact not KW but torc that should determen the multifix size IMHO
And with a DC drive like the 10EE it is a bit different I imagen as it does have less geared steps

Peter
 

PeWeTools4USA

Plastic
Joined
Feb 28, 2022
In fact not KW but torc that should determen the multifix size IMHO
And with a DC drive like the 10EE it is a bit different I imagen as it does have less geared steps

Peter
Of course torc (Archimedes: Give me a place to stand and with a lever I will move the whole world.) but which lathe user can measure this? To make it useable, all Multifix producer and also other Quick Change Tool Post producer too, give a recommendation about the max. drive power for the different sizes.
 

guythatbrews

Stainless
Joined
Dec 14, 2017
Location
MO, USA
Sorry this got off track. I said I have an A aloris qctp (actually AXA) and for sure I'd consider the A multifix too small for a 10EE. I think some folks might also say an AXA aloris is too small for a 10EE but it's great for my use.

Marcs0, there can't be a doubt you will improve the performance of your 135 (or any lathe) by eliminating the extra joint of the cross slide. The cost is loss of flexibility. I opted to install pusher screws to fix the cross slide and eliminate the slop I could. This topic has been broached before and one poster suggested drilling through the top of top half of the cross slide and bolting it solidly to the bottom half.

BTW it is curious to me how European lathes have the tapped hole to fix the toolpost and American lathes have the t-slot. I wonder why? I suppose the t-slot may be a bit more flexible but there is a lot less support for the toolpost for sure. At least you don't have the t-slot. There is a youtube vid out there showing a method to fill the t-slot and make the top solid but I think the method is dubious.
 

marcsO

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 24, 2020
Location
SURREY
Appreciate the comments from you all and interestingly I did watch Robin's video as well during this though process and was interested in what he said, I suffered brain fog when the discussion around scraping the post to take into consideration the twist induced with mounting the tool post holder, I'm not sure I will go to those lengths if I did the modification. I also think the way he 'braced' the holder with opposing grub screws is not something I would have any options to do with a Multifix other than dowel the centre splined part to the solid tool post.

The 135 has oil feed to the compound and as mentioned there was an accessory of this made specifically for fitment of the Multifix B holder but not available now, that would be the simplest route but I also like a challenge :-)

The cross slide has a circular groove with floating T nuts (x4) to hold the compound in place so maybe the solid toolpsst can be machined with the same design as the base of the compound to locate in the circular slot and be secured with the 4 bolts, first would be to draw up the part and then make a 3D print of the item to check for functionality.

Once done and here is a question for you guru's what material should be used, cast or some grade of stainless or steel?

Marc
 

marcsO

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 24, 2020
Location
SURREY
Here is the cross slide base with the compound mounting ring I mentioned in a previous post...

IMG_3849x.jpg
 

guythatbrews

Stainless
Joined
Dec 14, 2017
Location
MO, USA
For material I'd use c.i. if I had to buy something, or just any old carbon steel if I had it. I would only use SS if that was on hand and I didn't want to buy anything.

As far a scraping the bottom, since you are using the setscrews there isn't anything to warp the mounting surface. You can always blue the cross slide and check your riser and then decide if you wanna scrape.

How does the compound oiling work? Only seen the 135 in pictures and I can't figure it out.
 

beckerkumm

Hot Rolled
Joined
Aug 5, 2014
Location
Wisconsin Rapids WI
I use a Multifix A on my Smart Brown 1024 and an E on my CVA which is basically 10EE. I consider the A a great size for tooling up to 5/8" shank and the E much better for 3'4" tooling. The compound on the 135 looks to have enough meat to skim off .10 or so to accommodate the difference in height necessary when moving from the A to the E. I'd consider that as an option to have the best of both worlds. My A serves the 1024 well as I consider it a little more delicate in the drive system than the CVA ( heavier in headstock and bed though )but the E is really overkill for 90% of the operations. To give up the compound would require me to need the extra cutting depth more than 10% of the time. Dave
 








 
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