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Any experience with the Chinese WMT CNC?

Micromill

Plastic
Joined
Jul 9, 2022
Did anybody hear of, or experience, any products of either WMT CNC? The only Chinese company I know of is Syil, where mainly service is the troublesome thing.

What are we looking for? I was looking at the tiny XK7113D, which will be around 7.000 Euro after importing it.
Most of the tasks would be to make some sort of workholding/fixtures for our prototypes and experiments. This usually fits in a 100x100mm area and this is exactly where fast in-house manufacturing would help us. For the larger parts we can live with the waiting time of outsourcing (sometimes we may need to make small changes, but this would again work on the small workspace). Machining is thus not our core business and it will never be a high volume production thing. let's define our use case as just above hobby, entry level industrial :-)

BTW I'm in Europe. There are not many used machines in this budget range, let alone new machines. A >20 yr old Haas is even more expensive. As a starting company; this is the main reason for us.
 
I just been on search of a machine. I got big 24 year old Matssura vmc for 8500 from netherlands in good condition, With most modern features except usb.
I had a choice from 3-4 machines for 8000-10000 range, and those were big enevlope machines with 750+ X travel. Go to machinio and machineseeker and just bomb every every 15-20 year old machine that looks half decent. Especially since you are looking and smaller envelope than we do, there should be decent amount of offerings.

Personally in your case I'd look at Kitamura mycenter zero and fanuc robodrill types, they are good machines, and if you are not in a hurry can be found for the right price.
Ī have been offerd https://www.fermatmachinery.com/used-machines/machining-centres/vertical/dmu-80-en-221009/ for 6k. No ATC was a dealbreaker for me tho. I am not affiliated in any way, but just as a proof that plain bombing all sellers is viable.

Or this https://www.keetels.nl/en/listings/3818208-used-hyundai-spt-t30
 
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Greetings from Holland. I hope you enjoy your machine.

So your experience with >20 yr old machines is not so negative that you wouldn't go for it? You are right that we don't need much workspace. A Kitamura would be very nice as it is indeed quite nice for our small work area.
It is just that, it sounds impossible to me that a 20yr old product performs better than anything new.
 
Greetings from Holland. I hope you enjoy your machine.

So your experience with >20 yr old machines is not so negative that you wouldn't go for it? You are right that we don't need much workspace. A Kitamura would be very nice as it is indeed quite nice for our small work area.
It is just that, it sounds impossible to me that a 20yr old product performs better than anything new.
20 year old Porsche would outperform new Lada any day in almost any way. Only diference is no significant warranty, but if machine is meant for production load, and you do occasional prototyping, it would last you forever.

I think you should look at https://www.keetels.nl/en/listings/3818208-used-hyundai-spt-t30. it fits your description of size, price and designed work. Guys are +- local to you, and have good resposive support from my experience, I got my matsuura through them. Also being local you can inspect it for yourself, and not do as I did, buying in Top Gear fashion, sight unseen from the internnet
 
Also thing against XK7113D, it has non-taper spindle, so every tool needs to be readjusted, no preset tools, also er16 is quite liming, also 12000 2.2kw spindle with just a vfd limits you in what materials can you do, as cou can not drill/tap with it at all, and can not even drill basic steels used for construction and fixturing, because it will work harden on that high rpm, and on lower rpm you wont have power for any reasonable feedrate. so youll burn your drills. also XK7113D is tons less rigid, which gives you bad milling accuracy.
For axis drives they use
Feeding motor typeStepper motor with closed loop, Z axis with brake
Stepper motor even if thas feedback for error correction has low torque at speed.
Also siemens controls comes as an extra cost, brighing it s price to about 8500 again. If you dont use financing for machine procurement, steer clear from cheap chinese stuff for under 15-20k.
It even 20 year old machine from reputable manufacturer would wipe floor with those overprice tabletop hobby machines.

Also keep in mind resell value, used proper machine has already lost most of it's price, and if you maintain it, it wount cost much less to sell if you have to. Good luck selling chineese cheapo for any reasonable amount of money.
If any1 more experienced in this field disagrees, I can gladly be proven wrong.
 
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20 year old Porsche would outperform new Lada any day in almost any way. Only diference is no significant warranty, but if machine is meant for production load, and you do occasional prototyping, it would last you forever.

I think you should look at https://www.keetels.nl/en/listings/3818208-used-hyundai-spt-t30. it fits your description of size, price and designed work. Guys are +- local to you, and have good resposive support from my experience, I got my matsuura through them. Also being local you can inspect it for yourself, and not do as I did, buying in Top Gear fashion, sight unseen from the internnet
Thanks!
 
20 year old Porsche would outperform new Lada any day in almost any way.

Yeah well, that's not an apt comparison. Just visited a cute little engraving machine, 25,000 rpm spindle, 4500 lbs, 8 tool changer, BT 30, decent construction, $15,000. Sorry but that will kick any 20 year old "porsche's" ass that's anywhere near comparable in price. It's too easy to say these things when they often are just wishful thinking.
 
Yeah well, that's not an apt comparison. Just visited a cute little engraving machine, 25,000 rpm spindle, 4500 lbs, 8 tool changer, BT 30, decent construction, $15,000. Sorry but that will kick any 20 year old "porsche's" ass that's anywhere near comparable in price. It's too easy to say these things when they often are just wishful thinking.
Are we talking 7k stretching to 9 thosand or 15 grand?

And are we talking 300kg machine or 2 ton machine? It is not that old is good, it is that 7-8k euro for 300kg of aliexpress special. is waaay too much money for waay to little machine. It is aluminium bolted frame in fancy enclosure. Its price should be 3-4k max.

Op's machine in question does not have taper spindle, does not have tool changer, does not have proper servos, does not have speed or rigidity, has no torque spindle, has weak chinese NC. Its a glorified router with cut down travels.
 
Op's machine in question does not have taper spindle, does not have tool changer, does not have proper servos, does not have speed or rigidity, has no torque spindle, has weak chinese NC. Its a glorified router with cut down travels.

Ja, op's choice is not good. But for not much more money he can have okay. The difference between a 20 year old ikegai and, for example, the one I was looking at the other day, would really depend on the parts he wants to make. And he's not gonna get no decent ikegai for 7k either.

My point was, more research needed anad just deciding "old is better than new" isn't really factual. It depends on the parts he wants to make *and* the condition of the used machine. At a fixed price, choosing between used jap and new china is not so cut and dried. It's going to depend on a lot of factors.
 
My point was, more research needed anad just deciding "old is better than new" isn't really factual. It depends on the parts he wants to make *and* the condition of the used machine. At a fixed price, choosing between used jap and new china is not so cut and dried. It's going to depend on a lot of factors.
Used machine is used machine, and condition is up for inspection. Sometimes you can get a gem, sometimes you can get pile of scrap. Latter more often. However, worth looking at a machine and inspecting it personally, if it is about hour drive away. I wish I could find new machine, even if it was more basic features than my Matsuura, but there is nothing that can do quite big steel parts for under 10k.
 
Did anybody hear of, or experience, any products of either WMT CNC? The only Chinese company I know of is Syil, where mainly service is the troublesome thing.

What are we looking for? I was looking at the tiny XK7113D, which will be around 7.000 Euro after importing it.
Most of the tasks would be to make some sort of workholding/fixtures for our prototypes and experiments. This usually fits in a 100x100mm area and this is exactly where fast in-house manufacturing would help us. For the larger parts we can live with the waiting time of outsourcing (sometimes we may need to make small changes, but this would again work on the small workspace). Machining is thus not our core business and it will never be a high volume production thing. let's define our use case as just above hobby, entry level industrial :-)
Can you show us some parts you are planning to do?
 
Used machine is used machine, and condition is up for inspection. Sometimes you can get a gem, sometimes you can get pile of scrap.

That's why I said your rule of thumb is not appropriate. "20 year old Porsche is better than new Lada" doesn't hold water.

In the macining world, even with the quality of various brands, it still isn't true. If he's making small aluminum parts then a new crappy machine (not total junk but chebby-level, not a cadillac) with 30,000 rpm BT30 spindle will be better for him than a 1990 Makino with a 3500 rpm CAT 50 spindle. The job itself determines which is the better choice.

These pithy sayings are mostly not true.
 
If he's making small aluminum parts then a new crappy machine (not total junk but chebby-level, not a cadillac) with 30,000 rpm BT30 spindle
You are describing golf/corolla, not lada. Lada is in league of its own, even dacia sandero is above it.
1990 Makino with a 3500 rpm CAT 50 spindle.
Please, remind yourself it is 2023, and 1990 is 33 year old, not 15-20.
You can get mid 2000 machine in half decent condition, for under 10k if you are willing to wait a bit, filter a lot of garbage and bomb the classifieds.
Like machine I posted up. Hyundai SPT-T30. 10k spindle is no 30k, but already half decent IMO, can do rigid taping, BBT30, 14 pos atc, Compact'ish footprint, travel for small, and may be a bit larger parts, as said, adjusting bigger parts from other made by other shops, can be live tested with indicators and stuff, only downside is Jasnac controls, which are not strictly bad, but uncommon they are with some quirks and will need a dedicated workstation for drip feeding if more complicated parts are in order.
And there are more available like this, and most decent machines are for some reason in Netherlands, from where OP is.


The only Chinese company I know of is Syil, where mainly service is the troublesome thing.
Keep in mind, that SYIL is known to OP, and SYIL and it is for reasons is not an option. Getting more noname chinese is not something is a good direction IMO.
 
Like machine I posted up. Hyundai SPT-T30. 10k spindle is no 30k, but already half decent IMO, can do rigid taping, BBT30, 14 pos atc, Compact'ish footprint, travel for small, and may be a bit larger parts, as said, adjusting bigger parts from other made by other shops, can be live tested with indicators and stuff, only downside is Jasnac controls, which are not strictly bad, but uncommon they are with some quirks and will need a dedicated workstation for drip feeding if more complicated parts are in order.
And there are more available like this, and most decent machines are for some reason in Netherlands, from where OP is.

Getting more noname chinese is not something is a good direction IMO.

And there are nicely made chinese machines with hiwin rails, fanuc controls, better design features than the c-frame verticals, for way less than used hyundais.

The fact that you don't know their name is immaterial. It wasn't very long ago that no one knew the name doosan or hyundai or even makino. That's why makino bought leblond.

I am not going to stick up for either way but these over-simplified general rules just don't hold water. You might find a good fit either way. Either way will be something of a risk, but it's more a matter of which risk you are comfortable with than "used brand name is better than new unknown."

That's just not true.
 
Unknown is unequal no-name.
Unknown is not bad, and if done right become household names later. But if you google model name and it is 30-40 diferent chinese companies marketing it as their own highly designed custom offering, it is not unknown it is noname.
I was early adopter of xiaomi, and they are now everywhere and very established. I know, not the same thing as machinery.
 
I still like the analogy. And I have to admit; our 15yr old Toyota Yaris grocery car is still a better drive without any reliability issues compared to the new Opel Karls I occasionally get as a rental ;-)

But on topic;
About the parts;
- It is best to see the fixtures we make as a sort of mould in 2.5D. It also has some pneumatic channels, comparable to cooling channels in a mould. It's all relatively tiny and fits in a 120x120 (6''x6'') window. Height of workpieces often less than halve of that. So no 3D contouring, definetely no hard need for extra axes.
- Aluminium is fine for most applications. Harder steels or stainless steel would be really cool but not really needed and be of good value later. We can always do a plating if we need the alu parts to be a bit harder.
- We would like to go to smaller tools (0.3mm or even smaller), but that would require a higher RPM

What is important to us;
If I would have to pick one thing, I would say accuracy. That would use give peace of mind and prevent issues with the fixtures.

- High RPM and low spindle runout is common for small tools. But, this will greatly limit the machines we can choose from (in our budget range).
- Heavy and rigid machine aids in accuracy, but it's only aluminium... So not really needed I guess.
- Small size in our workshop is highly desired.
- We are OK with slow machining, relatively small tool capacity.
- We don't need a high torque spindle; we won't use large tools (>5mm) nor do any rigid tapping.

I looked at quite old Robodrills, but I'm not sure how old is too old. In the Toyota analogy; mechanically they may still hold but as soon as software/post-processors become a rarity I don't like it...
 
Wow, that is a lot smaller than I thought, i was expecting stuff like 1-2mm, not in 0.5 of km total feature size. Then yeah you need high speed spindle. However original machine you posted is piece of overpriced garbage. Seek for full ac servo machine, with iso20-iso30 spindle. And for even compact machines something around ton will give you stability and repeatability for such miniature work. Im afraid 7.5k priced suitable machi will be a unicorn.

Emco had a prototype mill for that typo of work. May be look into it
 
Yeah well, that's not an apt comparison. Just visited a cute little engraving machine, 25,000 rpm spindle, 4500 lbs, 8 tool changer, BT 30, decent construction, $15,000. Sorry but that will kick any 20 year old "porsche's" ass that's anywhere near comparable in price. It's too easy to say these things when they often are just wishful thinking.
I just wish we got machines like that in the States
 
Yeah well, that's not an apt comparison. Just visited a cute little engraving machine, 25,000 rpm spindle, 4500 lbs, 8 tool changer, BT 30, decent construction, $15,000. Sorry but that will kick any 20 year old "porsche's" ass that's anywhere near comparable in price. It's too easy to say these things when they often are just wishful thinking.
Can you share more info?
 








 
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