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Anybody Added coolant to a brown & sharpe #13 Need help with coolant pans/covers

Ianagos

Stainless
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Location
Atlanta
Hey there guys I got a brown and sharpe #13 from a fellow on the forum not long ago and I’m finally getting set to use it.

Seems like along the way the sheetmetal for flood coolant happened to get misplaced.

Coolant tank and pump I think I can manage although if anybody has something decent for sale I may be interested.

Does anybody have one of these grinders with the original coolant option? If you do would you be able to take some good pictures of your way covers and some basic measurements?

This machine has the bolts behind the table where the wide pan was I believe there may have been another cover or 2 but not sure about that.

Another question I couldn’t find an answer to
Is mist coolant suitable for cylindrical grinding? Or is flood pretty much required?

I have zero experience running a cylindrical grinder so I’m taking on a few projects so I’ll be ready when the time comes that I actually need to grind something.

Wheel selections for 8620 carborized? Also a2 around 58-60hrc and s7 in similar hardness? Looking to pickup a few 32A46I wheels 7”x1/2 from what I’ve read that will get me started. Are 3/4” and 1” wide wheels better? Or is 1/2 all I need? All the other cylindrical grinders I’ve seen always have real big 12” or 15” wheels.

I know lots of questions if you have any answers I’d appreciate all the help I can get.
 

michiganbuck

Diamond
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
Find the free download manual here.
Brown & Sharpe Mfg. Co. - Publication Reprints - No. 13/13H Universal & Tool Grinder - Manual | VintageMachinery.org
You may need to fabricate a sheet metal box to contain and direct coolant, a local furnace shop can make one off your cardboard mock-up.

Wheel width for your grinding needs. I like a 3/4 wheel as you can dress it off when needing a narrower wheel...But a 1/2" Does just fine. Tarry and bump is taking stock with the side of your wheel and a 3/4 is stronger for that. A lot of wheel and grinder safety advice tells to avoid side wheeling because that is an easy way to break a wheel. With any grinder where the operator os in the blow-up direction of a wheel caution is king.
I think the 13 grinder is about the best grinder made for small work, and few up jobs.
46 and 60 grit AO wheels are good and perhaps having a 100 for a sharp inside corner., vitrified diamond wheels 120 to 350 are common (best run wet).

A coolant spray is very good for steel work..a rubber hose to the wheel Ok for carbide work... so keeping overspray down. Good to have an extra mount for each diamond wheel because they should be knocked in to near zero run-out at first use. Diamond and all wheels should have a mount-up-mark so gravity helps center the wheel to that last dressing. I often used a hand spry bottle for 13 grinder jobs. I have seen guys using a drip drop on the part and that seems ok/good for some work.

Good to have a decent diamond dresser and be quick to change wheels so you might use a course wheel to get to +.003 or so, and change the wheel to a finer wheel for surface finish and size.
For a production job, you might make a spotter mandrel, one having that part diameter at one place where you put a tab of masking tape on the part to spot size. Stopping 3 or 4 times to measure is a big waste of time.

Often it is good to grind your work head spindle center in-place so it runs zero when turning with that part... with it having a line-up mark. (most work head spindles dont run dead zero and that is what you need for centers work .0002 is way too much for many jobs even if the spec gives that).

*Good to stand off to the side when starting an OD grinder wheel just in case it got bumped on the side somehow when parked.
 

michiganbuck

Diamond
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035

Ianagos

Stainless
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Location
Atlanta
Norton 32A46-IVBE Type 01 Vitrified Straight Toolroom Grinding Wheel, Aluminum Oxide, 7" Diameter x 1/2" Width, 1-1/4" Arbor, 46 Grit, Grade I, Purple (Pack of 1): Abrasive Tool Room Grinding Wheels: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
looks like an ok/good wheel.

Good to stick with name-brand wheels, Don't be afraid to try a white wheel as they can be less expensive.
You might go to Penn tool and look at Radiac wheels.
Search Results

I purchased a few wheels.

I have some Norton 5sg46-j
Norton 5sg unknown grit/hardness as it’s on an arbor
Norton 32a46i
Camel az60i (I think)
Camel az80I
Camel 32a46I


Think that will be enough wheels to get me started.

I need to draw up some sheet metal and see if I can’t get a fab shop near me to make something.

And find a coolant tank
 

michiganbuck

Diamond
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
Good to run an indicator near the tip of your headstock center, agree it doesn't matter if you run dead but good to know how it runs.
Some work you need to repair or move the part's center. Good to have an abrasive center lap to do that.
A parked wheel hand rub to the part and adjusting 1/2 the error to get .001 or so straight before indicating can be a time saver. long trave in rapid can also aid straightening.
To know the wheel hit dial number can save a hard hit.
Doing angle work a carborundum stone, a Norbide stick or an abrasive wheel dresser can save overuse of your diamond.

I think .0002 even if give in the spec is a lot for most precision shafts. Running closer to zero will/may make customers choose you over some hack shop that can just make .0002

I used to also consider one end to the other. lope de lope is one end running high on one side and opposite on the other end, that is not good for the bearings set on the shaft.
 

CarbideBob

Diamond
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Location
Flushing/Flint, Michigan
....
I need to draw up some sheet metal and see if I can’t get a fab shop near me to make something.
And find a coolant tank

Mock it up in cardboard first before drawing. Pay attention to edges you may want rolled or folded.
If multi piece give the mockup to the fab so they understand what has to fit inside what.
A cut down plastic 55 gallon drum makes a great coolant tank. You will want to add a baffle and maybe a weighted 5 gallon bucket inside to pull the clear water from.
 

Ianagos

Stainless
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Location
Atlanta
Mock it up in cardboard first before drawing. Pay attention to edges you may want rolled or folded.
If multi piece give the mockup to the fab so they understand what has to fit inside what.
A cut down plastic 55 gallon drum makes a great coolant tank. You will want to add a baffle and maybe a weighted 5 gallon bucket inside to pull the clear water from.

I do have a picture of the original to go off of it just got sent to the scrapper unfortunately.

That’s the original on the floor in front of the js.

712653c05e84f56c96ff959c17d4d7ff.jpg
 

Garwood

Diamond
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Location
Oregon
I had an early mechanical #13 and it was equipped with folded up sheetmetal coolant guards/guides. Looked just like an HVAC shop made it too.
 

michiganbuck

Diamond
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
Still keep in mind that many a 13 grinder has run it's whole life with not having coolant. No coolant at all, or a spray bottle when thought needed was not uncommon. The same with surface grinders, many were used mostly dry.

Coolant is great for high output and production work, but for one-ups/few ups and the like it does not add much speed and can hinder the work.

The same goes for milling and lathe work, dry is not uncommon.
 

Ianagos

Stainless
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Location
Atlanta
Still keep in mind that many a 13 grinder has run it's whole life with not having coolant. No coolant at all, or a spray bottle when thought needed was not uncommon. The same with surface grinders, many were used mostly dry.

Coolant is great for high output and production work, but for one-ups/few ups and the like it does not add much speed and can hinder the work.

The same goes for milling and lathe work, dry is not uncommon.

Like I mentioned above I don’t know much about cylindrical grinding. From everything I’ve read here people made it seem as though coolant was almost a requirement.

One of my first projects I’ll be tackling is a shaft 12” long with a couple 35 and 40mm bearing fits. Will have about .01” grind stock and be case hardened.

Will be making a few small tool holders before that just to get some practice in before I go scrapping a couple expensive parts.

Can I use mist coolant from one of the mister spraying units? I liked the idea of flood to also keep the dust down in the shop. But mist will be much easier to setup
 

michiganbuck

Diamond
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
Mist, drip drop, hand spray bottle, flood, dry all will work fine.
Many live centers have .0002 run out so consider that dead centers are best for close work.
Common micrometers are mostly not good for .0002 so it is good to make a JoBlock stack and use the stack along with your micrometer for a closer reading. Good to pick up an indicator micrometer for close work and still use a Jo Block stack to compare. Setting a micrometer to zero closed is not good enough for close grinding work...even setting an indicator micrometer to zero closed is not close enough.. only comparing to a block stack is close enough for .0002 and under work.

Good to practice a few parts before tackling a bearing shaft. Practice bumping in 25 millionths or so and make a size. to do that make a number of size targets on the same part.

If you can hit 6 to 25 millionths when still .001 oversize, then you are more assured you can hit size when on finish spec.

Starting a job/part it is good practice it to micrometer both ends and Sharpie mark + .xxx (or zero-zero) on the big end, then hand wheel feel a parked dressed wheel to the big end. trave down to the small en and wheel feel that end..use your cross dial to bring that end to mate. it won't be exact because the table pivot point may not be centered on your part..but this quick method should get you within .001 or so without taking a grind...yes you have to take out the feed screw slack so going the same way for each feel.

It is not uncommon in grinding to have No Stock to test grind, to make straight so one has to be able to make straight with not taking a grind.
 

Ianagos

Stainless
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Location
Atlanta
Mist, drip drop, hand spray bottle, flood, dry all will work fine.
Many live centers have .0002 run out so consider that dead centers are best for close work.
Common micrometers are mostly not good for .0002 so it is good to make a JoBlock stack and use the stack along with your micrometer for a closer reading. Good to pick up an indicator micrometer for close work and still use a Jo Block stack to compare.
Good to practice a few parts before tackling a bearing shaft.

I have mitutoyo digimatic micrometers they are usually good to about a tenth which is good enough for my work but if I’m doing tight work checking on joe blocks is a good idea.

I only have dead centers for this machine so far a few carbide tipped and a few regular ones.

I’ll give dry grinding a try here once my wheels arrive. And maybe a spray bottle with some coolant. I still see a flood system in my future but if I can use it as is that is going to easier.


Can I side wheel for a small shoulder or will I need to put a cup wheel on to do shoulders?
 

michiganbuck

Diamond
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
I have side wheeled with very thin wheels but I'm experienced I usually tell a rookie to use a 3/4 wide wheel for safety. The book says never side wheel but most grinder hands still do that.
Good to OD in at your mark with using a straight edge to line up off the side of the wheel(not just looking at the wheel). You should be able to hit .005 doing that even if you have to use a loop.
Side wheeling knocks down the wheel corner radius so that must also be considered. It takes a small grit wheel to make a right-angle corner...and a fresh dress, and come back into the part.

with a fresh dress:
a 46Gt wheel might get a .016 radius corner
a 80gt wheel .009 rad
a 150 gt wheel a .005.rad
a 500 gt <.001 if your lucky but difficult to use because of possible part burn if you should bump the OD.

Some soft wheels of that grit may give even bigger.

back in the day, the orange clay wheel would be used for a corner only ..after the part was sized a 150gt or so wheel would be brought in just for the corner..and still, a dead sharp inside corner could not be made (best possible .003).

So there is a another practice thing to master..come back on a part to get the corner. Blue up, park wheel feel the part Od and the cornet hit..write that down on a notepad.. come in very careful likely with this ad of a loop or magnifying glass...and just grind the corner with just witnessing the OD and that step shoulder.

Using screw long travel stops is an asset to go to and move a step corner..and knowing what travel there is on the stop..or stop to a shim perhaps a .030, so you can take out shims to move more. Go to a .025 .020 .015
 

Turbowerks

Cast Iron
Joined
Nov 9, 2018
Location
Windom
Anybody Added coolant to a brown &amp; sharpe #13 Need help with coolant pans/covers

I have a 13 good machine i use mist or flood depending on the day , mist is nice but harder to keep machine clean( i know clean grinder)? Depnding on it use and care the tailstock seems to be low on many of these old guys. Have fun stay safe with it
One thing i have done if allowed for sharp corners is dress a wheel with a radius protrusion on the corner and plunge in for a small under cut if a true sharp corner is needed as a bonus usually adds strength.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Doozer

Titanium
Joined
Jul 23, 2001
Location
Buffalo NY
I am at work right now, but at home I have some pics I can post of the factory coolant trays. I had been gathering as many pics of them as I could off the internet with the goal of making my own coolant trays. One thing I have found, with the factory trays, you can not swivel the wheelhead very much before it hits the tray. So when I built my coolant tray, I made some paper templates and swung the wheelhead a full 90° left and right, with the wheel brought full-forward, like it is grinding to the center of the rotational axis. My templates and subsequent tray that I made allow full wheelhead rotation left and right without hitting the tray. It looks kinda like a Byzantine arched window. This weekend I will post some pics, and I have a video of it on my Doozer's Shop youtube channel.

--Doozer
 

Ianagos

Stainless
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Location
Atlanta
I do not have a proper dresser for this machine. Has anybody seen something I could attach to the tailstock or to the headstock that could hold my diamond permanently. The way I currently have it I could not dress the wheel if I have a part between centers
 

michiganbuck

Diamond
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
Ianagos,
Consider that the diamond Does not have to be at the wheel centerline, but it is Ok being there. Being below center allows bringing in the diamond for a straight dress with not moving the wheel far from the work.

A bar coming off the table T slot with having a slot toward the wheel so the diamond might be moved to and from the wheel, at a good location for most of your grinding might be good. It could be moved right and left to best come to your wheel. it need not be hard or fancy or precise to just hold a diamond. It should be 1/2" stock so as not to vibrate or chatter.

The likes of a mill hold-down bar would do a fair job of holding a diamond holder block.
mill hold down bar - Bing

*Yes, the diamond set off about 15* of pointing toward wheel center so you may turn the diamond to a new facet.
 

Ianagos

Stainless
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Location
Atlanta
314d8c5fccb40ebeca85dc710dc32eb5.jpg



This diamond dresser sounds similar to what you recommended. It’s the dresser from my tool and cutter grinder I got with this machine.

Does anybody know if the upper table comes off the lower table? I believe some rust is binding it up. I was trying to adjust it and it took some dead blow hits to get moving and it’s still very stiff.

Also seems like my wheel keeps going out of round. After I dress it and take a cut parts of the wheel won’t have any grinding grit at all on them?
 

michiganbuck

Diamond
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
The rotating (universal) table comes off. The long-travel table is lubricated with the hydraulic oil I believe, look under to see that ways are wet with oil, and not rusted from long setting. don't run with them having ruse but clean /fone hone off any rust...and wipe clean the hone grit

That part is long to grind with not set on the tail. Take handhold to the wheel and lightly tug to see if any play/slop in the bearing, or wheel head. The work head for a part that size should turn at about 300 or less RPM (100 OK).

Be sure that tall dresser is not vibrating, or not setting solid on the table at the edge so giving a poor dress, and the diamond is on a sharp facet.

Be sure the mount has enough thread to easily go past the thickness of your wheel. some old wore out mounts have a thread failure and seem to be tight when they are not. Tighten as tight as you can with a hand on the wheel and a hand on the wrench..and then block the wrench and with two hands on the wheel make it just a little tighter. Put a Sharpi mark on the mount and wheel to see that are not moving off that mark.
Feel the motor to see if it seems smooth and not having a pulley full of sludge so out of balance.
Try a fresh wheel as some wheels are coolant logged, so out of balance.
Be sure all wheels have a blotter.
The part is central to the wheel head.
Blue the part to see the chuck does not have tapered jaws fit to the part,

*It is too dangerous to run with not having a wheel guard, you should make one up.*
 

Ianagos

Stainless
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Location
Atlanta
The rotating (universal) table comes off. The long-travel table is lubricated with the hydraulic oil I believe, look under to see that they are wet with oil, and nut rusted from long setting. don't rur with them having ruse but clear /hone off any rust.

That part is long to grind with not set on the tail. Take handhold to the wheel and lightly tug to see if any play/slop in the bearing. The work head should turn at about 300 or less RPM

Be sure that tall dresser is not vibrating, or not setting solid on the table at the edge so giving a poor dress, and the diamond is on a sharp facet.


The main travel is smooth as silk and well oiled by the pump. But the swivel on the universal is a bit frozen. I’ll have to get my buddy to gelo me take it off. Also will need to remove the work head as it’s been on there so long the last owners actually just painted the ways on the other side of it…


That part had a great finish with whatever wheel is on there after dressing. The diamond does not vibrate it’s pretty solid on there. Brand new diamond and it was real sharp.
 








 
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