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Are there jobs out there for a Jig Borer?

The best CNC mills use linear table encoders instead of
a rotary encoder on the end of the servo motor. But that
is a higher price option.

-D

They use both. Machines with scales use both rotary encoders on the servos and direct reading scales on the axis. On my scale machine if a scale goes bad I can change a parameter to disable scale and keep on trucking with the servo encoder. I lose 1 micron positioning, but I probably wouldn't notice.
 
I just looked at a thread that showed up- "Jig Bore Heaven" Pretty impressive- all these large boring tools lined up. WOW! But here's reality, most can be replaced with ONE endmill. I think to machining spindle housings on my Devlieg or Sips, and I have MULTIPLES of the same similar toolholders. Every bore size needs a boring bar set to the size, usually one for roughing and another for finishing. So a tremendous amount of tooling. Use the original SIP toolholders and you have to find cutters that fit, or in the case of Devliegs, the microbore cartridges. OR since these aren't readily available, I have Komets and Kaiser systems. A HUGE outlay of money for what? When a program can be written in minutes to do the same job as a PILE of accurately set boring tools, using a SINGLE endmill, thinking that owning a SIp or a Moore is the pinnacle of machining is lunacy. At this point they're a bargain, and there's a certain satisfaction in using them, but by the time you get tooled up, a person SHOULD just buy a CNC machine. I resisted getting a machining center for WAY too long. I WASTED so much time. Time that I won't get back.

Get a part running in a CNC, might as well run a LOT of them, so they don't have to be made again. Pressing cycle start is way easier than doing every operation manually. Load- unload parts. Multitasking- doing other things while my "slave" makes parts.

The ability to use coolant fed drills, reamers, and all of the other cutters. Do that on a SIP you're wearing the coolant and breathing it. The ability to machine VICE jaws in minutes to hold weird parts can't be understated. Just FIXTURING in a jig bore is challenging. Install a rotary table in a jig bore, to do circular work, and you LOSE daylight under your spindle- critical for big parts. I resisted getting out of the dark ages, because i had so many great machines. Really dumb! So I have probably two thousand square feet of shop space being taken up by jig bores that I don't use. Another eight thousand square feet of other idiotic purchases.
 
Ok, I know this question is likely to solicit a bunch of “WTF are you thinking, jig borers are a thing of the past and there are a lot of other equipment out there today that can do the same thing” kind of answers answers. But nonetheless, I need to ask the question of my esteem brethren out there that might have this knowledge.

Is there any work out there that would be worth having a jig borer for? Yes, I have a CNC, it’s a 90’s Hurco BMC 30 and I have a manual mill and a well used Rotary drill. I have a shot at buying a lightly used SIP MP-3k with a decent set of boring tools. I have a small shop so it’s a decent size and I have room for it. What does anyone think?

Kevin.
I say no buy a vf2 ss haas you have a better chance of finding work for it. And they hold there value pretty well
Don
 
Lessee ..... I don't know much a bout SIP's ... anything, really, but I've owned and made parts on a 2B devlieg, also called a "jigmil".

Cost $2500, but that was a steal, I have seen them currently for $5,000.

They weigh somewhere between 12,500 and 15,000 lbs, depending on where you look. Mine came with the rotary table and 2-piece angle blocks.

It has 36" of fully supported table in X. That portion of the base probably weighed 5 or 6,000 lbs alone. Y travel was 24" ? Column another 5 or 6,000 lbs ? and bar travel 12", with about the same as a retract mode for measuring (not available for machining). I have put a 3" insert cutter in the bar and machined nasty gnarly stuff at full extension with no chatter. Shocked me, in fact.

The rotary tables were famous for "bore halfway thru, spin and bore from the other end, just pick up the bluing without touching metal at the meeting point". I'm not that good but the table is extremely useful and quite accurate.

The entire machine is so much better built than anything "modern" you can find anywhere near that price that it's beyond ridiculous.

The way a devlieg works is, automatically rapid to the location, back up, feed in slowly, touch the locator, back up just enough to take pressure off the leadscrew, and clamp. Just poosh dee button. The location switches included about 2" face tenths indicators, you could read them to a half-tenth pretty easy.

You could either use the screw dials or use jig bore rods in v-troughs or make up bars of your own with pins, for larger volume jobs. I never made up bars but used both of the other methods. Measuring parts (gearbox housings, covers with several bearing bores, bearing bores at right angles, your basic gearbox-kinda stuff, just doing normal machine shop care I was always consistently under a half, usually less.

You think you can do this for $5,000 in a Haas ?

It's not sentiment. For the right work, a jigmil is nowhere near "obsolete" or an emotional attachment. They can do a hell of a job way cheaper than any other tool you'll find for anywhere near the price.

A picture is worth 10,000 words ... go ahead and tell me how a cheesy little c-frame vmc is going to work as well at cutting metal as this. It's not possible to "compensate" for the table hopping around like a bunny rabbit when you take a cut or make the feeble overhanging spindle stay square to the world with electronics, to say nothing of support for the tool and the part. It's silly.

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How about a part like this 1 day on a vf3 ss and it’s in the bank. I think that old equipments day has come and went it’s sad but true a shop has to make money at the end of the day. You would starve to death waiting on the right job for them old machines
Don
 
While I get excited watching and running my CNC, sometimes i forget WHY I bought Devlieg Jig Mills, Sips and Moore Jig Bores. There ARE certain types of work that they are the best tool for the job. Repair work for one. While my CNC shines at machining an entire part from a casting, a Jig Bore is the perfect tool for say sleeving a bad bearing bore, especially on larger parts. Back in the day, a Devlieg was a machine tool builders machine tool. They could effectively make parts much faster than with other machines. BUT if a part has a LOT of drilled and tapped holes, at different depths, with different pitches, having a tool turret loaded with tools is pretty fast, and wonderful. No matter how good a person gets with a Devlieg, it's a snail compared to a CNC.

A friend of mine works at Parker Hannifin, and operates a Moore or Sip Hydroptic almost every day. He's FIXING mistakes in a large manufacturing plant. So they DO have their place.

Lots of parts that need to be repaired, and considering the price of admission for a Devlieg, Sip or Pratt and Whitney, it could be a good business. BUT you have to really know what you're doing. While SIP's have incredibly accurate scales, machining parts using them for location requires practice and skill. While most of my machines have DRO's, they're getting old and dying. Do I spend the money on new ones, since Accurite doesn't support them?

Buying the machines may be the easy part. acquiring tooling and enough of it, that you can be effective, requires patience. It took YEARS to accumulate enough boring bars for my devliegs that I could just set them and forget them. Nothing is a bigger waste of time, than using just a few boring bars and changing them all the time. With my product line of seven different sizes of machine heads, requires at least TEN to fifteen bars each. In a CNC mill, just TWO boring heads and a carbide endmill do the same job.

The earlier poster that had the print for a Hewland transaxle- that's a perfect candidate for repair work in a jig bore. Machining the entire casting on the other hand, you'd grow old doing it on a JigMil. People that NEED this style of part repaired, certainly can pay a skilled operator to do it on a Jig Mil. Stick that casting on the Devlieg index table, and do all four sides in one clamping. That's a wonderful tool for four sided work. Long ago, I paid $2500.00 for a devlieg 2B-36, and PAID for the machine AND shipping doing just ONE machine tool head. While the machine MAY be considered obsolete, it was fairly effective.
 
A friend of mine works at Parker Hannifin, and operates a Moore or Sip Hydroptic almost every day. He's FIXING mistakes in a large manufacturing plant. So they DO have their place.
Umm, I think that was all that Doozer and I intended to say. They are not "obsolete". They have uses. Obviously they are no longer competitive at production machining but no one ever tried to say that.

Talk about straw man, we got a whole army of scarecrows here ....
 
I have a shot at buying a lightly used SIP MP-3k

It's the best manual coordinate drilling machine that money can buy and a real bargain if you need to repair gearbox bearing bores or bore one-offs. Unlike all the whacky machines that got dredged up so far, this one is small and simple.

Electronics are no substitute for an accurate frame. If you need a pair of bores to be parallel that requires a machine like this.

Make sure that it's actually got the tooling you need. The internal spindle taper is only 2MT and tooling for the external taper is unobtainable. I'm not sure what the drawbar thread is on the MT, but you should verify that it's something that's still available.
 
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"are-there-jobs-out-there-for-a-jig-borer"

Jig borers today are for maintenance and repair and rework.
CNC is for production parts.

Simple as that.

This thread got so muddy from the CNC loving gentry, it is ridiculous.
The differences are like a classic Bugatti verses a brand new Tesla.
Beautiful and reliable mechanical verses ugly and automated electronic.
Everyone thinks their way is best. But the jobs are different.
Totally different.

So the answer is YES there are jobs out there for a jig borer.
There are jobs out there for a Mack truck.
There are jobs out there for a Volkswagen.
Just they are different jobs.
Too many guys suffer from, "My way is best", disease.
Some cases are fatal, and few go quietly.

--Doozer
 
I'm reading this thread because I am retired and it is hot today in Florida. Everybody is discussing jig-borers such as Moore, Sip, DeVlieg, etc. This is a bit off-topic of the OP's original topic, but I thought some might be interested in reading Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy by Wayne Moore. Some great information in this treatise.

Here's the link .... https://ia800104.us.archive.org/20/...curacy/Foundations_of_Mechanical_Accuracy.pdf
 
I'm reading this thread because I am retired and it is hot today in Florida. Everybody is discussing jig-borers such as Moore, Sip, DeVlieg, etc. This is a bit off-topic of the OP's original topic, but I thought some might be interested in reading Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy by Wayne Moore. Some great information in this treatise.

Here's the link .... https://ia800104.us.archive.org/20/...curacy/Foundations_of_Mechanical_Accuracy.pdf
Yes. It is the architecture of the machine elements that create
a basis of geometric accuracy so precise movements generated
by a screw can actually translate to actual linear movements
of the table. Hence my previous comment about CNCs adopting
the fully supported table from jig borer design.
I wonder how many that comments have actually read this book.
(I have for sure).

-Doozer
 
Lessee ..... I don't know much a bout SIP's ... anything, really, but I've owned and made parts on a 2B devlieg, also called a "jigmil".

Cost $2500, but that was a steal, I have seen them currently for $5,000.

They weigh somewhere between 12,500 and 15,000 lbs, depending on where you look. Mine came with the rotary table and 2-piece angle blocks.

It has 36" of fully supported table in X. That portion of the base probably weighed 5 or 6,000 lbs alone. Y travel was 24" ? Column another 5 or 6,000 lbs ? and bar travel 12", with about the same as a retract mode for measuring (not available for machining). I have put a 3" insert cutter in the bar and machined nasty gnarly stuff at full extension with no chatter. Shocked me, in fact.

The rotary tables were famous for "bore halfway thru, spin and bore from the other end, just pick up the bluing without touching metal at the meeting point". I'm not that good but the table is extremely useful and quite accurate.

The entire machine is so much better built than anything "modern" you can find anywhere near that price that it's beyond ridiculous.

The way a devlieg works is, automatically rapid to the location, back up, feed in slowly, touch the locator, back up just enough to take pressure off the leadscrew, and clamp. Just poosh dee button. The location switches included about 2" face tenths indicators, you could read them to a half-tenth pretty easy.

You could either use the screw dials or use jig bore rods in v-troughs or make up bars of your own with pins, for larger volume jobs. I never made up bars but used both of the other methods. Measuring parts (gearbox housings, covers with several bearing bores, bearing bores at right angles, your basic gearbox-kinda stuff, just doing normal machine shop care I was always consistently under a half, usually less.

You think you can do this for $5,000 in a Haas ?

It's not sentiment. For the right work, a jigmil is nowhere near "obsolete" or an emotional attachment. They can do a hell of a job way cheaper than any other tool you'll find for anywhere near the price.

A picture is worth 10,000 words ... go ahead and tell me how a cheesy little c-frame vmc is going to work as well at cutting metal as this. It's not possible to "compensate" for the table hopping around like a bunny rabbit when you take a cut or make the feeble overhanging spindle stay square to the world with electronics, to say nothing of support for the tool and the part. It's silly.

View attachment 441084
Shop porn should be illegal.
The old shop had a couple of 3 inchers that had GE NC conversions. One was solid, but the other, well, it was haunted. When you'd least expect, usually when the quill was mostly extended while working from the backside of the angle base, you'd hear the thing unlock.... Run for the big red button
 
I also have a Pratt Whitney 2A, because I am an engineer
and it tickles me so. 10,000 pounds of awesome and 114-1/4" tall.

-Doozer
 
I also have a Pratt Whitney 2A, because I am an engineer
and it tickles me so. 10,000 pounds of awesome and 114-1/4" tall.

-Doozer
Troughs, rods, indicators and all. Strange collets though. The shop had a 3B as well. I liked the 2A better than the 3B, the 3b was big enough you were always on your feet. Moving the table around didn't feel quite as smooth as the little Moore #1 but it was a nice machine to run.
 
Troughs, rods, indicators and all. Strange collets though. The shop had a 3B as well. I liked the 2A better than the 3B, the 3b was big enough you were always on your feet. Moving the table around didn't feel quite as smooth as the little Moore #1 but it was a nice machine to run.
Probably going to upgrade the DRO.
It has a dead one from the 1980s.
For what I do, the gauge stacks will probably
never get used. I was given a set of P&W
gauge rods from a friend, probably use them
to set micrometer calipers.

-D
 
I absolutely love my Moore #3, and use it frequently. Of all of my manual machines, it has by far, made me the most money. I am STILL constantly doing work on it even with a Brother. I love running it, it's accurate, and a joy to run.

While I have used it for all things, the best thing I think done on it was a friend of mine rebored his 4 cyl Mercedes diesel. It came out perfect, he saved a bundle from having a shop bore it, and I grin every time he pulls in.

So yes, the Brother absolutely crushes it in production. I still do a lot of 1 off parts, and with its large spindle work envelope, it will do a number of things the Brother cannot.
 
Wow! This brings back memories. Last time I ran a SIP was when I was working on helicopter gearboxes. So yes, if you're building helicopters they come in handy.
 

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