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Are we losing expertise and institutional knowledge?

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stoneaxe

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pacific northwest
Along with all the off-shoring of production, have we lost not only the factories, but the knowledge base accumulated over years, because of the greybeards retiring without being able to pass information along? I look at some of the threads on this site, and wonder even if we had the tools to build some of this stuff, do we have the people able to do it?
 

boosted

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Jan 4, 2014
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Portland, OR
Is this a real question? Of course we are losing manufacturing knowledge and expertise (locally) as the industry dries up.

The one caveat I have is that there are quite a few companies that have domestic manufacturing engineering that supports their production in SE Asia. Most secrets aren't actually being "lost", they are just being transferred to a region where they are more relevant.
 

Kingbob

Hot Rolled
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Dec 1, 2009
Location
Louisiana
I think about this too.
I agree that it's an obvious yes but I think that's should we need lost or forgotten skills we (Americans or "the west") will just have to do some reinvention of the wheel and make due or do without.
As a kid I was obsessed with the idea of how they built the pyramid.
As an adult running a shop it's pretty obvious. The Pharos got a group of smart people together and gave them : motivation, resources, manpower, and time.
The same grocery list that got us to the moon. (If you think building a geometric pile of rocks is more complex than that, PM me so we can fist fight :fight:)
My dad and many of you are at that age where one begins to worry about the world they will be leaving behind, I think that's a very normal thing to do.
We are all products of the world(s) we grow up in and hard times make for hard folk and life in the west has been very soft for generations.
Yeah this current crop is soft and worried about some weird shit but wokeness and virtue signaling look a lot like McCarthyism or any other historical witch hunt. I think this is just what people do when they don't have to worry about feeding themselves on a daily basis.
The human animal hasn't changed in a generation. When times get tough again the cream will rise like it always has and if the world falls apart for a while then that's only people getting to lay in the beds they've made.

People will do what's needed to survive, if life depended on pouring babbitt, hand scrapping or oakum and lead pluming tomorrow then you would be tripping over gender fluid trans sub queers in these trades by the end of the year lol.
Everything is going to shit like it always has and everything is going to be ok like it always has.
 
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Ries

Diamond
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Mar 15, 2004
Location
Edison Washington USA
We have been losing expertise for 10,000 years, every time somebody dies. But it comes back, when somebody else cares enough to learn it.
Its true that when a shop shuts down, you lose the unique combination of knowledge, jigs, things we always ordered from which supplier that work with our particular machine.

But a good example is blacksmithing.
the government dumped a ton of money (actually thousands of tons) perfecting mig and tig welding during WW2, and, as a result, the fifties saw a giant increase in fabricated ironwork, and a big decrease in trained blacksmiths.
Most of the really good blacksmiths in the 20th century were all trained in Europe, and immigrated here, speaking no english, and having no money. Cyril Colnik, Samuel Yellin, and tons more. But by the 60s all those guys were dead and retired, and from about 55 thru about 1970, we had virtually nobody who knew how to do it.
But, in the mid 70s, a bunch of young dumb hippies reinvented blacksmithing, reading old books, reverse engineering existing work, and making a lot of mistakes.
And right now, we have blacksmiths as skilled as any who have ever lived, and many who are more knowledgable, because they understand more about the materials and the science.
 

EmGo

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Apr 14, 2018
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Over the River and Through the Woods
But a good example is blacksmithing ... in the mid 70s, a bunch of young dumb hippies reinvented blacksmithing, reading old books, reverse engineering existing work, and making a lot of mistakes.

Took fifty years tho, and the emergence of a group who didn't care about money to accomplish that. Obviously "lost" knowledge and skills can be regained but it's not going to happen in six months just because some drooling old bastards in washington decide they'd get some votes by spouting a bunch of balderdash. The very same old bastards that cut the balls off those skills and knowledge thirty years earlier, may we note ... You need an actual long-term did I say long-term plan with actual resolve or grit, tenacity, persistence, planning, perseverence, sticktoitivness, wilingness to look farther than next quarter, whatever.

Whatever it is, something that has not been on display in the US for a long time now, except for hippies and other edge-dwellers who do not care about money. Finance is a cancer. Or at least the kind of finance that we have had for a long long time, pulling all the strings.
 

EmGo

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Over the River and Through the Woods
Some interesting graphs on this site- https://www.visualcapitalist.com/where-are-clean-energy-technologies-manufactured/
Guess who has a long term plan. Guess who doesn't.
Not to worry, Conrad. Joe will team up with Marjorie Taylor Greene to give two trillion dollars to Goldman-Sachs who will use chatgpt to incentivize investment in new technologies ! Let private industry do it ! Private industry is creative, just look at Enron ! When the going gets tough, Americans stand up for what's right ! We're speshul ! Mission Accomplished !
 

jccaclimber

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Nov 22, 2015
Location
San Francisco
time is different,

the next generation have changed their mind.
mechanical is so dirty, tired.etc
they love IT,music, entertainment
It's not getting dirty, it's that getting dirty pays less than not getting dirty in so many cases. Often it seems like getting dirty pays less than putting boxes on shelves, with some vague promise that you might make another $2/your in 10 years if you keep your nose to the grindstone.
 

LOST MYSELF

Plastic
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
It's not getting dirty, it's that getting dirty pays less than not getting dirty in so many cases. Often it seems like getting dirty pays less than putting boxes on shelves, with some vague promise that you might make another $2/your in 10 years if you keep your nose to the grindstone.
you are right, pay much, get little
 

Ries

Diamond
Joined
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Location
Edison Washington USA
Took fifty years tho, and the emergence of a group who didn't care about money to accomplish that. Obviously "lost" knowledge and skills can be regained but it's not going to happen in six months just because some drooling old bastards in washington decide they'd get some votes by spouting a bunch of balderdash. The very same old bastards that cut the balls off those skills and knowledge thirty years earlier, may we note ... You need an actual long-term did I say long-term plan with actual resolve or grit, tenacity, persistence, planning, perseverence, sticktoitivness, wilingness to look farther than next quarter, whatever.

Whatever it is, something that has not been on display in the US for a long time now, except for hippies and other edge-dwellers who do not care about money. Finance is a cancer. Or at least the kind of finance that we have had for a long long time, pulling all the strings.
Finance ruined manufacturing, because all it cared about is money. I tend to agree.
But how, exactly, do you get the idea that the current generation of blacksmiths "dont care about money"?
I have met hundreds of blacksmiths in the last 30 years or so. I am personal friends with dozens. The vast majority of the serious ones run businesses. And, believe me, they "care about money".
I know at least a couple of dozen guys who have had full time businesses with 3 to 5 employees for 20 to 30 years.
If a machine shop only has 3 employees, is that a sign that they dont care about money?
I know a half dozen shops who do high end ornamental work, for 20plus years, including mine, with full time employees and project budgets often ranging from 100k to a million. does that count as money?
I know a guy who has singlehandedly revived structural riveting, and he gets paid to work on things like historical bridge restorations. He just built a really cool overhead hung deep throat structural riveter, and believe me, his hobby gigs as a bass player didnt pay for that.
I know two shops who manufacture cookware, mostly frying pans, both with employees, both of whom are usually backordered. Again, resurrected tech, restored old machines, rebuilt new machines, and they make profits.
A dozen high end knifemakers, whose knives sell for a grand to 3k or more. Several with employees.
A guy who started a musuem and school, running now since the late 70s, he retired from it but its got something like 20 full time employees now. Every day he worked there, money was the number one thing he had deal with.
Another close friend manufactures mokemegane, the mixed alloy metal stock used by high end jewelers around the world. He sells to the top jewelry supply companies, who, in turn, retail it. He has to care about money to buy gold, silver, and other alloys to make the stuff. He also has a knife he made in the collection of the Victoria and Albert museum, in London. He got paid for it. In money.
I know a couple other guys who started blacksmithing schools, and the students pay to attend, in money, which they use to pay the employees.
I could go on and on.
All the men and women who reclaimed the "lost" skills of forging had to earn money to do it, and most started businesses and employed people, and then sold the work they made.
kinda like how a machine shop works.
 

jaguar36

Hot Rolled
Joined
May 13, 2015
Location
SE, PA
I know a guy who has singlehandedly revived structural riveting, and he gets paid to work on things like historical bridge restorations. He just built a really cool overhead hung deep throat structural riveter, and believe me, his hobby gigs as a bass player didnt pay for that.
Speaking of lost knowledge, how did they drill the holes for all of those rivets? Did they have massive mag drills back in the day? I work in a 100+ year old factory and there must be more than a million lie 1" rivets holding it together. I assume they must have been match drilled onsite.
 

Georgineer

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Dec 27, 2008
Location
Portsmouth, England
An interesting read, Ries, but I can't help a feeling that your examples are nearly all what I would class as luxuries. That requires people (or society) to have enough money to spend on those luxuries. Regrettably, a large number of those people and institutions acquire their money not by actually making things but through financial processes. Even within industry it's often the accountants and financiers who get the large wages because they are perceived as saving money, whereas the makers of things are perceived as costing money. Look at the richest people in the country - any country, any century - and tell me if they ever made anything.

I was taken with something the writer Philip Gibb said in 1937: "I've come to the conclusion that money is an illusion. It's fairy arithmetic, made by mysterious people called Bankers."

George
 

standardparts

Diamond
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
Some interesting graphs on this site- https://www.visualcapitalist.com/where-are-clean-energy-technologies-manufactured/
Guess who has a long term plan. Guess who doesn't.
"Guess who has a long term plan"?
"WE Energy wins approval of a huge solar, battery project in Kenosha County with about 750,000 solar panels on 1,500 acres." Planning for the future...750,000 solar panels. Jobs for Americans they say....power from the sun they say....shut down the coal fired plant they say...

Whoops..."Over 750,000 solar panels destined for two major We Energies solar farms in Wisconsin are being held in a Chicago-area warehouse while U.S. customs officials ensure the panels comply with a ban on Chinese imports made with forced labor."...."new law banning imports from China's Xinjiang region over concerns about slave labor"

So....."Are we losing expertise and institutional knowledge?" Sure looks that way.

 

Radar987

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Location
TX
but the knowledge base accumulated over years, because of the greybeards retiring without being able to pass information along?
What knowledge, specifically?

Yes.
When you outsource you also outsource the knowledge and the ability to do it yourself.
History shows that nations and empires are built on manufacturing, get rid of that and the only way is down.
Lack of manufacturing infrastructure is a problem. Lack of passed-down knowledge is not. Don't understimate how quickly we can figure things out when our backs are up against a wall.

Whoops..."Over 750,000 solar panels destined for two major We Energies solar farms in Wisconsin are being held in a Chicago-area warehouse while U.S. customs officials ensure the panels comply with a ban on Chinese imports made with forced labor."
I totally agree that we should be making solar panels here in the states, but this isn't an offshoring problem. The panels were never made in the states to begin with. Current solar panel tech wasn't developed here and offshored. It was developed in China, by people from all countries. That's a problem. It's actually worse than offshoring.
 
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