Are we losing expertise and institutional knowledge?

[standardparts]

Based on how you wrote this I don't think you're going to agree with me, but you've put a lot of political twist into things you don't like. Hiring based on true qualifications and equal opportunity are, at least here, the same thing. I don't care if you are male, female, other, or have purple polka dots on your skin. I've worked just fine with people in all of those categories, including the purple polka dots. I don't care what you ID as when you use the one unisex bathroom we have and I don't care what bathroom you use when we get lunch at a place with more than one bathroom. I do care if you can do your job.

What I dealt with in Texas was 50% of people who also didn't care and 20% people who wouldn't hire or promote anyone who didn't have the same race, gender, beliefs as them. Unfortunately those 20% happened to be the hiring managers, and they were hiring on a lot more than "ability to get the job done" while claiming otherwise.

It was actually a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. Most halfway intelligent black/female/whatever candidates who were smart stayed away, and as a result those that were hired were typically unqualified. Of course it was never their fault, it was because "Women aren't good at these jobs." "He only hires Hispanics because he's Hispanic.", etc. In the last case the manager in question was still hiring Hispanics at a lower % than the local population, they were all qualified (which is why they were hired), and there weren't other qualified applicants. The old guys just couldn't stand hearing another language at the water cooler and thought anyone who didn't dress like 1960 NYC wasn't professional.

"Hiring based on true qualifications and equal opportunity are, at least here, the same thing"

Had to read that part of your post a few times. I guess what the meaning is a person who's skills most closely meet the job description. Only in a perfect world?

Tough thing to find in the real world...past, present, and most likely in the future.
But a noble accomplishment for any employer who is able to do so and still staff enough people to run a business that requires, say anything more than a dozen employees.
Maybe things are getting better, maybe not. But Yeah, it can be a real shit deal being the wrong color, wrong gender, might as well being the wrong everything working for an Archie Bunker type.
Glad I don't have to deal with staff and HR hiring standards anymore.

 

[EmGo]

You got that right - before unions, sick leave, labor laws, unemployment insurance, osha, be nice to employees, etc. businesses were more profitable.

"I aimed for their hearts but hit their stomachs"

 

[standardparts]

"I aimed for their hearts but hit their stomachs"

Upton Sinclair....No doubt he was not likely to get invited to any of the parties held by the Chicago meat packing moguls.

Pre WW2 America had a whole bunch of socialist/commie inspired activism going on. Other than a few bomb throwers some good for he common man came out of all the shit stirring.
Some good writers....most all of them go blacklisted from the industry.

Most likely if Upton Sinclair tried to start the shit today he would get de-monetized off youtube.

 

[jim rozen]

Nobody's read Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" I guess.

 

[???]

I'm not sure if they are all conservative ideas or not but they certainly appear to be reasonable.

Jordan Peterson makes a similar observation. Something like; liberal types tend to be more creative. Therefore, they are often better suited for coming up with bold ideas necessary for starting a business.

Conservative types tend to be more rigid and orderly. Therefore, they are better suited for building and operating a business.

His point was that as chaos is to order, or yin is to yang; liberals thinkers and conservative builders compliment each other's strengths and weaknesses.

It is a comparison of human thought pattern though; not political affiliation.




If you want a glimpse of what it's like; pop in one of these once or twice a week:

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

It takes all types to run a successful business. Conservative can also be used to describe resistant to change, in the current world of rapid change this can drive you out of business pretty quickly. On the other hand being overly creative can do exactly the same. Things are a lot more nuanced than conservative vs liberal.

Viktor Shvets Macquarie banks head of Asian strategy had a interesting take on how society is drifting to the left. A conservative of today taken back 100 years would probably be called a screaming lefty.

 

[???]

Not sure what PM you're on man, but over the years a lot more threads have gone to shit due to liberal pontifications and name-calling. Many contributing conservatives have dropped-out over the years after incessantly being bludgeoned over the head by liberals here.

I don't know of the top of my head any valuable liberal members who have dropped out of PM? Certainly a few have been banned...

And notice who takes the time to create "my shop" threads, posting lots of pics and sharing useful information...they tend to be the conservatives. Are there any liberal shop owners who have posted a "my shop" thread? Liberals tend to talk a lot, but usually don't offer input of much real value here...

Just like you EG, anytime somebody has a software question, you fire back "write your own software", or "use some archaic 80's software and do the job ten times better". These suggestions may be practical for you, but the point of this website is to share practical solutions that machinists and shop owners can actually apply.

Another modern liberal tenant, projection: accuse the other side of doing the exact things that you are doing, and eventually the idea may stick. (It certainly works in Washington, as the starkly-biased mainstream media is more than happy to help spread the liberal spin.)

Only recently have the ownership and moderators realized you can't let the liberals dominate the discussions, else pretty soon PM will be a barren wasteland....

Regarding EG I keep an eye out for anything he posts just to see what outrageous statement he will make. It's often my laugh for the day, I do wonder if it is done to stir the pot sometimes. Being a successful member of the manufacturing community is more than just being a good machinist, if a person only wants to interact with themselves and machinery then don't listen to people like EG with their vast albeit different life experiences.

 

[standardparts]

Nobody's read Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" I guess.

Can't recall if I've ever read it. The movie presents a pretty tragic story.
Most probably what with all the homeless now-a-days along with migrant labor exploitation it seems not much has changed, except for a more violent environment.

 

[Garwood]

It takes all types to run a successful business. Conservative can also be used to describe resistant to change, in the current world of rapid change this can drive you out of business pretty quickly. On the other hand being overly creative can do exactly the same. Things are a lot more nuanced than conservative vs liberal.

Viktor Shvets Macquarie banks head of Asian strategy had a interesting take on how society is drifting to the left. A conservative of today taken back 100 years would probably be called a screaming lefty.

I wonder if a Coastal Conservative is a Bible Belt Liberal?

 

[jccaclimber]

I wonder if a Coastal Conservative is a Bible Belt Liberal?

Depends, for a social perspective approximately yes. I was considered far left when I was in TX and am not not far enough left for many in CA. That tells you next to nothing about my beliefs.

 

[Freedommachine]

It takes all types to run a successful business. Conservative can also be used to describe resistant to change, in the current world of rapid change this can drive you out of business pretty quickly. On the other hand being overly creative can do exactly the same. Things are a lot more nuanced than conservative vs liberal.

How is that any different from what I said? Lol

Of course the world is more nuanced than that. It was an observation made by a social scientist doing a study of group traits.

Viktor Shvets Macquarie banks head of Asian strategy had a interesting take on how society is drifting to the left. A conservative of today taken back 100 years would probably be called a screaming lefty.

What would the modern left have been called 100 years ago?

 

[EmGo]

What would the modern left have been called 100 years ago?

Weird, and strange, and useless. I can't even consider them lefties, as they are all fixated on meaningless symbolism, who can go in what bathroom, and spluttering over who got dissed on what teevee show. The 1920's left was concerned about getting paid for working, about having a reasonable workweek, about not getting killed due to dangerous conditions, about having a hospital within three days' ride and rentals without rats.

Let's not get started on the differences between my mom's conservatives and what passes for the "right" these days.

The place has gone nuts, on both ends.

 

[Ries]

What would the modern left have been called 100 years ago?

I dunno about 100 years ago, but 50 years ago here in Washington, the answer would have been "republicans". We had governor Dan Evans, R, who started the very first State department of Ecology, in 1970. A lot of Republican State Reps and Senators had to vote yes for this to happen. He also started a campus of the State University System at about the same time, Evergreen State College, that is about as "woke" as you can get.
And he was far from alone. We had liberal Republican Senators and Representatives in Washington DC, in the 60s and 70s, like Slade Gorton and Joel Pritchard.
Many States did, back in those days.
Today, even Ronald Reagan would be too far left on many issues for "conservatives". Remember, he signed the Mulford Act into law in California, and he supported the Brady Bill.

 

[PDW]

I think it's PDW who says, "Write your own software" unless we're talking abut websites where your dead grandma could do a better job, or possibly for things that have an open sores alternative which is not the same as writing your own. I don't usually say that, you have me confused with someone else. (I would think that's hard to do ?)

I only sometimes say that. Mostly I use free open source software, myself. Though I do use Macbooks and Apple's OSX. That's because I cannot abide the festering pile of shit that's Windows these days. I expect to move operating systems to linux in the near future as my Macbooks age out.

I'd not attempt to write my own CAD/CAM package or 3D parametric modeling software to give a couple examples. I'd also never put myself at the mercy of Fusion 360 either.

Shrug.

As for conservatives/liberals - the soi-disant conservatives have been highly abusive, threatening and basically as thick as 2 short planks. Lots have departed and the place is better for it. The 'liberals' - well, Big B and millard have self-destructed and zero loss there either. They gave everyone who even had vague left leanings cause to consider the company they were keeping.

So again - shrug. I've no time for bigots, racists and religious nutcases regardless of their religion or pet causes.

PDW

 

[EmGo]

I only sometimes say that.

Lots of times, I think it's a fair thing to say.

"Cast your own engine block" is sort of unrealistic but learning to write software, well, that's where most programs came from in the first place : someone had a need and learned how to do it. You don't have to spend ten million dollars on capital equipment, 'just' learn C.

 

[ttrager]

It takes all types to run a successful business. Conservative can also be used to describe resistant to change, in the current world of rapid change this can drive you out of business pretty quickly. On the other hand being overly creative can do exactly the same. Things are a lot more nuanced than conservative vs liberal.

Viktor Shvets Macquarie banks head of Asian strategy had a interesting take on how society is drifting to the left. A conservative of today taken back 100 years would probably be called a screaming lefty.

In my opinion the terms "conservative" or "liberal", "Left" vs "Right" have no real meaning anymore. People have their own definitions quite often based on rampaging bias of their own, at the outset. Words like this have become nothing but blind, reactionary can's of gunpowder that people start tossing at each other whenever it's convenient to do so. Nothing good comes of this anymore, even though the original concepts for those words had some constructive philosophy behind them. At one time.

The best I've been able to figure out for myself is what I think many "just trying to get honest work done" feel:

** Do the job well and correctly. Merit based performance, not politics and opinion.
** When personalities collide, as they inevitably will, try to foster finding Common Ground for that in the workplace, which always is: DOING THE JOB.
** Doing the Job is the Common Ground that everyone should be standing on in the face of the Politics and People factors causing trouble. Right vs Left, Front Office vs Shop, etc.
** Ultimately, the responsibility for making THAT the culture in a company, white collar or blue collar, as well as the interfaces between front office and shop, is Leadership.
** Those people with deep understanding of how to get things done technically (and employed) have become more important. From a training and mentoring perspective. My impression is, perhaps others disagree, that this creates an increasingly difficult feedback loop to deal with: 1) Your most expert machinist in a given discipline may not be the right person to train people. Could be the opposite. 2) Just because someone is an apprentice/student doesn't mean they can, want to, or are willing to learn.
** In all cases the only thing I can come up with as a way to combat all this is to stick to "common ground", the Job. Don't just word of mouth it. Teach people how to deal with each other in the shop based on THE JOB, not personalities. Make sure you are sourcing technical knowledge from the guys with the (proven and reliable) experience doing the work accurately, document that precious knowledge and practice, and find the right people to train the new blood in that.

Turned into a TLDR. What triggered all this was the mention of Conservatives vs Libs, etc., and the fact those personality driven and defined terms don't mean anything anymore. We are losing the ability to find . . . common ground . . . not only in society in general, but at work as well. Trying to get work done.

 

[Freedommachine]

So again - shrug. I've no time for bigots, racists and religious nutcases regardless of their religion or pet causes.

Aww, where's the fun in that?

 

[Freedommachine]

We all understand that it is morally wrong to discriminate people in the workplace based on anything other than performance and qualifications. That's fair right?

So, is it morally acceptable for a board of directors to set a hiring requirement that 30% of their board positions must meet a certain criteria based solely on sexual orientation, race, ethnicity or gender identity?

Is it morally acceptable for a corporation keep track of this type of information - sorting their workforce by gender, skin color or sexual identity - and use that information when deciding who to hire in order to control diversity by force?

I mean, what do those meetings even look like; "wtf Dave, you hired another white old guy as the 2nd shift engineer. We discussed this already, we need more black women, Indians, or LGBT. No more white guys and definitely no more Asians!"

I can't be the only one who thinks these modern day practices are reprehensible. I am 100% for helping people out of poverty and treating all people by an equal standard but the way I see it, this is just plain racism.

 

[jccaclimber]

We all understand that it is morally wrong to discriminate people in the workplace based on anything other than performance and qualifications. That's fair right?

So, is it morally acceptable for a board of directors to set a hiring requirement that 30% of their board positions must meet a certain criteria based solely on sexual orientation, race, ethnicity or gender identity?

Is it morally acceptable for a corporation keep track of this type of information - sorting their workforce by gender, skin color or sexual identity - and use that information when deciding who to hire in order to control diversity by force?

I mean, what do those meetings even look like; "wtf Dave, you hired another white old guy as the 2nd shift engineer. We discussed this already, we need more black women, Indians, or LGBT. No more white guys and definitely no more Asians!"

I can't be the only one who thinks these modern day practices are reprehensible. I am 100% for helping people out of poverty and treating all people by an equal standard but the way I see it, this is just plain racism.

You aren’t, and I some common sense needs to be applied. Two opposing examples:

If you have a company with 2 employees, you aren’t going to have an employee from each and every group, there simply aren’t enough people.

If you have 100 employees and every single one is from a group that makes up only 20% of the qualified population, there’s probably more going on than qualifications based hiring. We can debate the causes, but something is making you hire from a smaller hiring pool than you need to and others are being prevented from practicing their trade.

Where in between the line is and what to do about it it opportunity for a lot of debate.

 

[cnctoolcat]

Viktor Shvets Macquarie banks head of Asian strategy had a interesting take on how society is drifting to the left.

For sure.

And the reasons? The simplest explanation is that drifting left is the easiest path...and human nature tends to follow the easy path.

And don't try to say the left isn't the easier path. The left want everybody to be equal, with no winners or losers. Everybody should have a minimum income, housing, clothing, food and health care...whether they get off the couch or not. It's idealist.

The right basically believes that if you don't work, you don't eat. Either my ancestors or myself have worked to get mine, you work to get yours. But leave mine alone.
It's realist.

Of course any great society takes care of it's children, handicapped, and elderly.

 

[Thunderjet]

Of course any great society takes care of it's children, handicapped, and elderly.

Yup.
Although, if you're of a certain persuasion, you simply change the definition of those words. (you could add in "campers" to the above mentioned).