Are we losing expertise and institutional knowledge?

[Conrad Hoffman]

Given the state of education today- too expensive and too constipated by conflicting liberal and conservative views, I wonder if we really could figure things out if our backs were to the wall. By "we" I don't mean us old farts, but the youth of today.

 

[standardparts]

What knowledge, specifically?


Lack of manufacturing infrastructure is a problem. Lack of passed-down knowledge is not. Don't understimate how quickly we can figure things out when our backs are up against a wall.


I totally agree that we should be making solar panels here in the states, but this isn't an offshoring problem. The panels were never made in the states to begin with. Current solar panel tech wasn't developed here and offshored. It was developed in China, by people from all countries. That's a problem. It's actually worse than offshoring.

Actually I'm fine with the energy provider sourcing materials at the lowest cost since I'm a WE energies customer.
My point was, it seems someone dropped the ball regarding legislation impacting the source of solar panels. Whether or not that was a case of a lack of experience or knowledge in project management is just a guess on my part but it appears we might have lost the skills of project planning and management from design to completion.

 

[EmGo]

But how, exactly, do you get the idea that the current generation of blacksmiths "dont care about money"?

I "get that idea" by having you not read what I wrote

I never said that or anything like that. I said "the people who recovered that knowledge did not care about money" which is true. True many times in many places. Printing on hand presses, organic vegetables and free range chickens, dairy cows who live in a field instead of concrete boxes, any number of other "recovered old ways" have all been done by wackos who live in teepees or wigwams.

Then later on the stuff gets "artisanal" and wealthy people pay big money. But almost never in the beginning.

 

[PDW]

I "get that idea" by having you not read what I wrote

I never said that or anything like that. I said "the people who recovered that knowledge did not care about money" which is true. True many times in many places. Printing on hand presses, organic vegetables and free range chickens, dairy cows who live in a field instead of concrete boxes, any number of other "recovered old ways" have all been done by wackos who live in teepees or wigwams.

Then later on the stuff gets "artisanal" and wealthy people pay big money. But almost never in the beginning.

Well yes and no. They cared about money all right, as they needed enough to buy the stuff they couldn't grow or barter for.

But - and this is the important bit - they didn't care ONLY about money, or even primarily about money. They just need enough to get by.

I'm the same. Could have made far, far more money if I'd stayed in commercial software development. I'd quit and go back to poorly paid R&D jobs because they were interesting and allowed for experimentation, learning and stuff. As long as I had enough money to pay the bills and live my relatively frugal lifestyle, it was enough.

The phrase that sets my teeth on edge and sets off my radar is 'leaving money on the table'. Every time I hear that I look at the person and think - there's someone who'll fuck me over for the sake of a red cent. No concept of win-win and long term relationships. Because NOT fucking me over is 'leaving money on the table'.

Unfortunately it seems that the entire US financial 'industry' has that mindset.

PDW

 

[LOST MYSELF]

What knowledge, specifically?


Lack of manufacturing infrastructure is a problem. Lack of passed-down knowledge is not. Don't understimate how quickly we can figure things out when our backs are up against a wall.


I totally agree that we should be making solar panels here in the states, but this isn't an offshoring problem. The panels were never made in the states to begin with. Current solar panel tech wasn't developed here and offshored. It was developed in China, by people from all countries. That's a problem. It's actually worse than offshoring.

12H working, every day, 700 dollars per month

 

[gbent]

Knowledge has a half life. Some deserves to be lost. I used to be pretty good at Fortran. What value is that skill? What value is the best steam engine designer? Or the best shaper operator?

 

[doug8cat]

They say there is no dumb question but this question is on the boarder line. We do a lot of casting work and even on foundry side I can see over the past 5 years things have one down hill. Quality is really suffering, for example used to recieving a casting in and it was ~ 90% clean of no-bake. Now we are lucky to have 60% cleaned up. Neourmous inserts wasted inserts cleaning off this iron sand mixture, so bad infact in some cases have to use HSS to clean this mess off. And that is best case. 2 tone casing was recived missing features, 6 hours to machine them in. Tribal knowledge is going the way of the Dodo.
I don't know if people just do not care or they have no idea of what they should be doing.
This problem of lost knoweldge goes far beyond the casting chaps. Engineers (a lot of them, not all) have no machinging knowldge. I just got a print for a simple bracket with a pillow block bering. This guy was depicting measurment s from cast edges and amongst other things listing parts in the lbill of mat. that did not correspond to print.
Stepping of my soap box / back off ledge, it getting worse NOT better.

 

[cnctoolcat]

History shows that nations and empires are built on manufacturing

Mining/drilling, manufacturing, and agriculture: the three pillars of any economy, and the only true ways to generate wealth. Everything else is just leeching horse shit.

And eventually when the shit does hits the fan (and it will because of extreme financial mismanagement by our and other governments), the real producers will be the only ones not wiped-out by the catastrophic fallout.

Most of the over-paid, overhead jobs will get flushed, as the currency will be worth very little. Back to the bare-bones essential way of mankind survival: trading something you have or create for something you don't have or can't create, but must have in order to survive (food, shelter, clothing, health care, etc.)

Gonna be a huge reset, with a lot of high-minded, self-important people standing in line for food.

 

[ttrager]

Yes.

People only get better at what they practice. When you offshore the practice elsewhere, someone else is gaining the knowledge and experience while the original source atrophies and dries up. That's just the "physics" of how the human animal works.

Unless we find a way to bring manufacturing BACK to where it belongs, and we engage in "marketing" campaigns that hype the cool-ness of making stuff with your own (CNC aided in many cases) hands so that younger generations take an interest, I'm not sure how anything can be corrected in a real sense.

Mike Rowe did an interview once where he talked about how "the trades" are drying up because of lack of interest, the fact you don't see metal shop and such in schools anymore to capture the interest of young people with the interest/aptitude.

You can bet all the people given the offshore'd work in other countries have the interest, whether through need to eat or otherwise, and so have captured the ability to PRACTICE the craft.

 

[EmGo]

Gonna be a huge reset, with a lot of high-minded, self-important people standing in line for food.

We can always hope

 

[standardparts]

Mining/drilling, manufacturing, and agriculture: the three pillars of any economy, and the only true ways to generate wealth. Everything else is just leeching horse shit.

And eventually when the shit does hits the fan (and it will because of extreme financial mismanagement by our and other governments), the real producers will be the only ones not wiped-out by the catastrophic fallout.

Most of the over-paid, overhead jobs will get flushed, as the currency will be worth very little. Back to the bare-bones essential way of mankind survival: trading something you have or create for something you don't have or can't create, but must have in order to survive (food, shelter, clothing, health care, etc.)

Gonna be a huge reset, with a lot of high-minded, self-important people standing in line for food.

"Mining/drilling, manufacturing, and agriculture: the three pillars of any economy"
Reading some of the really "exciting and informative" articles on solar it would seem that in the next decade we will rid ourselves of reliance on mining/drilling for coal and natural gas and instead harvest FREE energy from the sun which will be provided by solar farms which at this time should also rid ourselves of a bunch of mining/drilling, manufacturing, and to some extent agriculture used for the feeding of humans.

While I totally agree and am convinced that the strength of a nation depends on it's ability to produce what it needs, and in the process provide jobs for it's citizens, in these modern times it seems manufacturing is more profitable and causes less injury to the environment if it is farmed out to some other country---at least that seems to be what upper management/investment bankers have decided.

 

[Ox]

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[jim rozen]

"The phrase that sets my teeth on edge and sets off my radar is 'leaving money on the table'. Every time I hear that I look at the person and think - there's someone who'll fuck me over for the sake of a red cent. No concept of win-win and long term relationships. Because NOT fucking me over is 'leaving money on the table'."

This originates at the standard US corporate rule: the only thing corporations make, is money. The only players they care about, are the shareholders, and the only goal is to mazimize RIO for the shareholders. This has always been the case and always will be. Anyone who thinks the rich folks will be standing on line for food after the mythical 'reset' are dreaming. The scammers got there because of who they are and what they do. That won't change ever. They'll be the ones at the *head* of the lines, handing *out* the food. If you're lucky you won't be standing on that line.

 

[JST]

Mining/drilling, manufacturing, and agriculture: the three pillars of any economy, and the only true ways to generate wealth. Everything else is just leeching horse shit.

And eventually when the shit does hits the fan (and it will because of extreme financial mismanagement by our and other governments), the real producers will be the only ones not wiped-out by the catastrophic fallout.

Most of the over-paid, overhead jobs will get flushed, as the currency will be worth very little. Back to the bare-bones essential way of mankind survival: trading something you have or create for something you don't have or can't create, but must have in order to survive (food, shelter, clothing, health care, etc.)

Gonna be a huge reset, with a lot of high-minded, self-important people standing in line for food.

Very true, and there are examples.

Back when the USSR fell apart, my parents had taken an exchange student from the USSR. She was from a hundred miles or so from Chechnya, in a university town, and her father was a mechanical engineering professor (and a very practical person).

When the USSR fell apart, the university shut down, no money. The completely "theoretical" staff, physicists, mathematicians, etc, often were reduced to begging on the street. They didn't know how to "do" anything, not even plant seeds. Her father however, because he could do practical things, fix stuff, grow food, etc, did Ok. Not great, things were not great in general, but he was eating, and not destitute.

Rich people might start by handing out food, but most will end up far back in the line. Rich people often have only once resource, money. They use that to get the other things they need and want. When that does not work, there is nothing to fall back on. Money does not buy the last water a thirsty person in a desert has.

 

[EmGo]

This originates at the standard US corporate rule: the only thing corporations make, is money. The only players they care about, are the shareholders, and the only goal is to mazimize RIO for the shareholders. This has always been the case and always will be.

This is a myth that Milton Friedman and his asshole buddies propagated, very successfully, but it's not the truth. Many times corporations were created to accomplish something no individual person or company could, like putting up a water tower for a town, or bringing the canal or railroad through, or building an electric plant (LA still has one of these and it survived enron nicely) -- whatever. These corporations commonly operated with little or no profits, since the purpose was the common good, not money.

Even normal money-oriented corporations, before that scum Friedman, did not exclusively or even majorly place "shareholders" first. Classically, shareholders do not own a corporation. The corporation owns itself. Its first duty is not to shareholders but to itself; to continue, to stay in business by making the most intelligent decisions possible. If the shareholders don't like how it's run they are free to take their dollies and go home. This "shareholder" crap is a perversion of the original idea.

 

[fmari --MariTool-]

Last week had a x-axis slide taken apart, rebuilt with new turctite and ball screw bearings. Both service guys were in mid 40's.
Currently having a tech modify the ladder diagram in one machine so I can have a few extra M-codes for automation, he is 55 years old.

 

[Ox]

Very true, and there are examples.

Back when the USSR fell apart, my parents had taken an exchange student from the USSR. She was from a hundred miles or so from Chechnya, in a university town, and her father was a mechanical engineering professor (and a very practical person).

When the USSR fell apart, the university shut down, no money. The completely "theoretical" staff, physicists, mathematicians, etc, often were reduced to begging on the street. They didn't know how to "do" anything, not even plant seeds. Her father however, because he could do practical things, fix stuff, grow food, etc, did Ok. Not great, things were not great in general, but he was eating, and not destitute.

Rich people might start by handing out food, but most will end up far back in the line. Rich people often have only once resource, money. They use that to get the other things they need and want. When that does not work, there is nothing to fall back on. Money does not buy the last water a thirsty person in a desert has.

I seem to have, or meet people in my life recently that are all about buying silver coins or just plain gold. Somehow that is going to carry them through a Zombie Appocolypse they think. IDK why they would think that? In that case, you will need to have something to barter with. Whether it be [needed] knowledge, or stuff. A can of beans will be worth more than a silver dollar.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[triumph406]

I "get that idea" by having you not read what I wrote

I never said that or anything like that. I said "the people who recovered that knowledge did not care about money" which is true. True many times in many places. Printing on hand presses, organic vegetables and free range chickens, dairy cows who live in a field instead of concrete boxes, any number of other "recovered old ways" have all been done by wackos who live in teepees or wigwams.

Then later on the stuff gets "artisanal" and wealthy people pay big money. But almost never in the beginning.

The new "Brew Masters" come to mind. The local ones seem to think they have saved us beer drinkers from ordinary beer, rediscoverd how to make real beer, but as with a lot of millenial endevours, missed the mark by a few thousand miles because they think they know it all with their computer controlled brewing equipment. A Brewer at Theakstiones probably looses more knowledge every time he takes a piss then these new age Brew Masters will ever know.

Thumbs upto all the new local brewers starting breweries locally. Thumbs down to the fact they try and re-create a type of beer and miss the mark miserably. They like to call themselves 'Brew Masters' with their natty goatees, and their hipster dress sense, but can't seem to always hit the mark when they try to copy a beer, especially European Beers. All the local Breweries make belguim beers, which all taste of IPA. The German beers taste of IPA, English beers taste of IPA. And I f'ing hate IPA.

My late wife came from Cologne. In Cologne they drink Kolsch. The local Brewery had "re-created " a Kolsch, my wife took one sip, and very nearly glassed the brewer.

 

[Ries]

Speaking of lost knowledge, how did they drill the holes for all of those rivets? Did they have massive mag drills back in the day? I work in a 100+ year old factory and there must be more than a million lie 1" rivets holding it together. I assume they must have been match drilled onsite.

Punched.
But big radial drills have been around for maybe 130 years, at a minimum. The Titanic was riveted, and they blame the fact that the rivets were wrought iron, not steel, for failure. My buddy uses steel rivets...

 

[Ries]

I wonder how many of you guys have actually passed on expertise and institututional knowledge?

What I know about machining, I learned going to night school in Machine Shop at LA Trade Tech in the late 80s. (I had to work during the days, because, as an artist doing ornamental ironwork, I had to care about money).
My instructor was a retired McDonnell Douglas master machinist named Tommy Honda, who after his 30 odd years at Mickey Dee, took a job that probably paid about 200 bucks a month to teach machining to kids like me.
Tommy was tough, and experienced, and no bullshit- but he also really cared about passing on the trade, so he was down there several nights a week.
He could have retired and gone fishing or something, but he didnt. Part of it was probably the bullshit he had to go thru, working in aerospace in the 50s and 60s as a japanese american. My guess is he could well have spent time in a US camp during the war- I have known several other japanese americans who were in Manzanar or Tule Lake, and they had a similar no complaints no bullshit attitude towards life.

Since then, I have in turn trained at least a dozen people, who worked for me from 3 to 5 years each.
Not as machinists, but as high end fabricators. I hire people usually straight out of 2 year AA degrees in welding or manufacturing technology. A couple had some industry experience, but usually production line stuff.
And I have been pleased to see several of em go on and start their own businesses, and in turn even hire employees.

Its easy to complain. Its better to pass on what you know.