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Automobile Manufacturing, all the new EV's, how is the tooling made?

gustafson

Diamond
Joined
Sep 4, 2002
Location
People's Republic
As the annoying person on the windmill farm tour and on a tour of Boulder Dam, I was told the generation cost of the windmill farm was 12 cents per KWH, and the hydro plant locals were paying 6.8 cents per KWH all charges included delivered. That was a decade or so ago, as far as green power goes, hydro kicks butt. It is all on the maintenance costs. It is easy and cheap to control the turbine speed with hydro electric, to deliver 60hz power with wind power, that is expensive. The turbines are all in a very open room that climbing a story of stairs gets to a platform to work on them. I am sure working on a windmill is harder and more costly. Go ahead and explain where I am wrong, I am all ears.

Yes hydro kicks butt

Please propose a new dam site

Your information is a decade or more old

Wind without subsidies is cheaper than gas
It is now 'cheaper' to build new wind turbines than to just 'run' a Coal plant

Oh, and when Putin invades foreign countries, the price of wind doesn't go up





https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...d-power-so-cheap-they-re-outgrowing-subsidies


he reason, in short, is the subsidies worked. After decades of quotas, tax breaks and feed-in-tariffs, wind and solar have been deployed widely enough for manufacturers and developers to become increasingly efficient and drive down costs. The cost of wind power has fallen about 50% since 2010. Solar has dropped 85%. That makes them cheaper than new coal and gas plants in two-thirds of the world, according to BloombergNEF

Renewable Energy Prices Hit Record Lows: How Can Utilities Benefit From Unstoppable Solar And Wind?

.Over the last decade, wind energy prices have fallen 70% and solar photovoltaics have fallen 89% on average, according to Lazard's 2019 report. Utility-scale renewable energy prices are now significantly below those for coal and gas generation, and they're less than half the cost of nuclear. The latest numbers again confirm that building new clean energy generation is cheaper than running existing coal plants.

In other words, it is now cheaper to save the climate than to destroy it. Capacity installation trends reflect this economic reality, with new wind and solar generation coming online at a breakneck pace. Wind power capacity in the U.S. has more than doubled since 2010 and reached nearly 100 GW in 2018.

In Lazard's LCOE analysis, unsubsidized wind power and utility-scale solar come in at lower price ranges than any other analyzed resource including gas, coal, and nuclear. Unsubsidized wind ranges from $28–$54 per megawatt hour (MWh), and unsubsidized utility-scale solar ranges from $32–$42/MWh. Factoring in subsidies, wind prices plunge to $11–$45/MWh and utility-scale solar prices stay relatively stable at $31–$40/MWh.
 

laminar-flow

Stainless
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Location
Pacific Northwest
Yes, fossil fuels have had subsidies for almost 100 years.

If a group of investors decided to start an energy company, what would be easier to get funded and started today? A coal plant, gas plant, nuclear, wind farm, solar? Once you have the location, wind and solar would get on line long before the others.

When Monarch decided to make the 10EE variable speed electric, (we'll skip the first hydraulic drive), was it less cost because of all the hardened gears that didn't have to be made for a geared drive like their other big lathes? So could it be that the auto companies are seeing more profit in electric vehicles than all the complexity of a piston engine and all the associated systems that accompany it? After initial development, could that be the case? Anyone know more inside info on this?

Conserve the oil for air travel as I don't see pushing a 777 across the Atlantic on batteries. There are a few battery powered twins getting close to a first flight. One issue with battery powered aircraft is your landing weight is the same as takeoff weight. The benefits are no fuel to keep on the CG and I guess same power at any altitude. But batteries may not fit in thin wings. Could work well for short haul service. They sure look great.

Eviation – Eviation Alice

Bye Aerospace E-Flyer’s Electric Airplane Flies 525 Miles on a Charge – Robb Report
 

SVFeingold

Aluminum
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Location
Santa Clara

This is flat-out vaporware and the chances of them achieving these performance figures are zero. I will bet money on it. Unless they are sitting on a monumental breakthrough in battery technology that will 10x their energy density while hitting all of the other performance metrics we tend to demand of them. In which case forget building a plane, because that's a trillion dollar company in year one.

I am happy to be wrong, and I hope I lose that bet, but for now I just can't see it.
 

laminar-flow

Stainless
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Location
Pacific Northwest
I thought the same when someone suggested I test drive a Nissan Leaf. The energy density is less but since ~70% of the energy in a gallon of gasoline is wasted as heat, batteries are not that bad. But yes, I doubt they will get those numbers. Still, I would love to fly it.
 

triumph406

Titanium
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Location
ca
I would need to see a cost breakdown with real math. I have seen too much misinformation from both sides on the green energy debate. I have actually toured wind farms, mind you it was a dozen years ago or so. I was the most annoying person on the tour, like I was when I toured Boulder Dam asking a mess of technical questions. On the wind farms the issue was the braking systems to keep the blades from spinning too fast. That was where a lot of the maintenance costs were.

Next time you go to Boulder dam, ask this question

"so what happens to hydro-electric when there isn't enough water to fill the dam and spin the turbines?" Doesn't look so good then.

Wind will always blow, sun will always shine and uranium will always heat water into steam.
 

CITIZEN F16

Titanium
Joined
May 2, 2021
Next time you go to Boulder dam, ask this question

"so what happens to hydro-electric when there isn't enough water to fill the dam and spin the turbines?" Doesn't look so good then.

Wind will always blow, sun will always shine and uranium will always heat water into steam.

I think it was 2010 I was there from the videos and pictures I saw it doesn't look much lower. They seem to grow a lot of water thirsty crops in those deserts and have quite a few golf courses. I wonder what percentage of the use goes there?
 

triumph406

Titanium
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Location
ca
I think it was 2010 I was there from the videos and pictures I saw it doesn't look much lower. They seem to grow a lot of water thirsty crops in those deserts and have quite a few golf courses. I wonder what percentage of the use goes there?

Good question.

This article says Palm Springs area golf courses use 1 million gallons of water per day, per golf course. These are feed by aquifer. But it's a fair assumption that golf courses using Colorado River and california Aquaduct water use similar amounts of water.

The Desert Sun

After I read that I didn't feels so bad about having a pool or washing the car
 

barbter

Diamond
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Location
On Tour...
Good question.

This article says Palm Springs area golf courses use 1 million gallons of water per day, per golf course. These are feed by aquifer. But it's a fair assumption that golf courses using Colorado River and california Aquaduct water use similar amounts of water.

The Desert Sun

After I read that I didn't feels so bad about having a pool or washing the car

I'm sure a few years ago....there was a big "thing" because people and their homes were on water rations, but the new Golf complex up the road still had unlimited water supply.
And the local golf complex had something to do with the local governor, hence no restriction?
 

standardparts

Diamond
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
I'm sure a few years ago....there was a big "thing" because people and their homes were on water rations, but the new Golf complex up the road still had unlimited water supply.
And the local golf complex had something to do with the local governor, hence no restriction?


"Rules for thee and not for me" Probably without exception a fact that citizens the world over must endure.
 

standardparts

Diamond
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
So many facts and numbers regarding solar and wind power. I guess from what I'm reading here that solar and wind provide energy at a rate much cheaper than traditional generated power.

Fact is...Once the electric powered alternatives to gas and oil dominate in daily use, does anyone actually think energy will not rise to a price based on "whatever the market will bear"?
 

Trueturning

Diamond
Joined
Jul 2, 2019
So many facts and numbers regarding solar and wind power. I guess from what I'm reading here that solar and wind provide energy at a rate much cheaper than traditional generated power.

Fact is...Once the electric powered alternatives to gas and oil dominate in daily use, does anyone actually think energy will not rise to a price based on "whatever the market will bear"?

Fossil fuels have upward pressure in the face of the Green energy. This is a article which takes the overall costs of energy in light of the new claims that green is cheaper. It looks at the market and how green has been incentivized where as fossil fuel has been burdened. This despite the fact that more fossil fuel is required to stabilize the grid when wind and solar show their variable nature.

When generation drops fossil fuels much higher in costs is the go to stabilizing factor.

I just started reading this it takes Europes experiences into account which is timely to their energy requirements.

Let’s Come Clean: The Renewable Energy Transition Will Be Expensive
 

CITIZEN F16

Titanium
Joined
May 2, 2021
Good question.

This article says Palm Springs area golf courses use 1 million gallons of water per day, per golf course. These are feed by aquifer. But it's a fair assumption that golf courses using Colorado River and california Aquaduct water use similar amounts of water.

The Desert Sun

After I read that I didn't feels so bad about having a pool or washing the car

Maybe not anymore but one time on a west vacation I saw soybean and alfalfa farms close to the Colorado river in a desert. I was thinking why are they growing those crops in a desert? Not sure of the life of a soybean, but you can turn alfalfa into pellets, so no need for it to be grown as feed in the area it is used. My question is why are they growing water thirsty crops in an area that has suffered long periods of drought since it was settled?
 

CITIZEN F16

Titanium
Joined
May 2, 2021
So many facts and numbers regarding solar and wind power. I guess from what I'm reading here that solar and wind provide energy at a rate much cheaper than traditional generated power.

Fact is...Once the electric powered alternatives to gas and oil dominate in daily use, does anyone actually think energy will not rise to a price based on "whatever the market will bear"?

It seems most of those sources are biased and that goes both ways, the numbers are all over the place. I even saw an anti wind farm one that listed the cost of removing one when taken out of service. In the cost break down, it seemed to leave out the amount of recyclable materials, which doing some quick math on today's prices would be about $85,000. Then there are ones that leave out credits.
 

standardparts

Diamond
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
Will there be, or is there, a gov't requirement to disclose EV vehicle performance same as ICE vehicles (passenger) have on the window stickers? Not having looked at an EV at a dealer might already be on the window sticker.
 

CITIZEN F16

Titanium
Joined
May 2, 2021
Will there be, or is there, a gov't requirement to disclose EV vehicle performance same as ICE vehicles (passenger) have on the window stickers? Not having looked at an EV at a dealer might already be on the window sticker.

Will they be accurate or unattainable like the old mpg numbers?
 








 
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