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B&S Grinder Double V Reconditioning

tommybees

Plastic
Joined
Aug 9, 2023
Good Day - I have embarked on a long repair journey of a very old new to me BS#2 Grinder and looking for advice.
Starting with the cross feed base female double v ways, there is more significant wear than I had measured with feeler gauges at the time of purchase. And with the parts disassembled, there is grit damage at the ends. On top of this, some uninformed person hacked cross oil channels that only served to drain the way oil from the surface. The vertical column show some wear but some flaking is visible along most of the length on all 8 surfaces. The spindle (sleeve bearing type) appears to be in good shape with no measurable run-out or end play. In short the upper half of the grinder appears in good shape.... and so we begin.

These ways are both saddled about +/-.0035" down at each end with the crown biased towards the spindle side(not centered).
PXL_20231024_175544161.jpg

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The wear on the male V ways of the carriage show about 0.0035" of remnant material matched to the longitudinal oil groove shown in the image and materials that is at the bottom of the V. However, there is very little crown.
Lastly, the surface on top of the female V ways look to be from the factory (blanchard ground?) and with minimal effort, should stone clear in short order.

If there is a relevant past link some of you may be aware of on how to approach this please share. I am happy to lurk there and delete this post. I have searched on V and double V ways and have not found any sufficient details.

Now for the questions ( I only have access to Schleshinger testing of machines book) :
1. Where to start...and what specific tooling to measure the ways is recommended? A simple depth gauge on a moving v block seems limited.
Is a good moving v fixture block with a long horizontal pin contacting one side and a ball centered along the pin on the other side correct or just a simple block with parallel sides of 1- 2" long?
It seems that there is a risk to be easily mislead by reading either side of the saddle and or moving down on one side of the saddle and why I am asking this basic question.
Do we work from the center of the high point and try to flatten the peak until the ends come in and then use a straight edge? At this point straight edge pivots on the peak and is of little use.
Do we finish one side first and then align to the second or work on both?
2. Should I machine first or attempt to scrape? The length of these features are about 12 inches.
3. How to best measure the centerline of the the V along travel to ensure it remains parallel to the sister V? Machining first seems to be the best starting point?
4. How to keep the centerline from wandering down the length of travel and how to best measure this?
5. Plan is to fill the hacked in oil cross grooves with epoxy...is this a good idea?
6. Is a bonded synthetic liner something to consider since the carriage will sit even lower still when completed? I am guessing all surfaces have worn somewhat equally and including bow removal the total might approach 0.020" drop.

Any help or inputs are appreciated.

Cheers,
TB
 
Take pictures if the male ways. They are longer then the female ways. The rule is you scrape the long side first and match fit it to the short ways. Yo can prepare the short side by scraping the ways straight down to remove the scratches. Count the number of times you scrape the sides an scrape the ways on female side to, the scrape the same number on the male sides.
Do you have a camelback straightedge? It should be a few inches longer of the longest way.
 
Look at page 248 fig.25.38 I would build a fixture like this but bolted together and use it to compare one end to the other and a camelback together. I have an easy way to check the male side. Take some pictures of the male side . Yes use the clearance areas to measure from.
 
Of the Connelly book that is no need to have the V block. Tape, wire or clamp the level to the parallel. A Starrett 199 level has a 1/4" adjuster screw to offset the bubble level, as long as your close
 
Thank you Richard for the quick reply.
I instantly makes sense to start with the longer element first, however I do not yet have a long enough Camelback for this purpose and hoping/searching to find something at a local auction. I see that I will paying much more for a straight edge than I did for the whole grinder.

Here are some photos you requested.
PXL_20231024_175544161.jpg
And closer up of the worst offender (2nd from the left far end first)
PXL_20231025_031825608.jpg
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My PDF copy of the book only seems to go to pg 96? Is your reference for Connely or Schlesinger?
If you dont mind, can you briefly describe that set up?

Thanks again,
Thomas
 

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After looking at the machine the scored ways were caused by lack of lubrication and never cleanings I suspect. If you don't have the correct length SE you could step scrape. How long is your straightedge? I had a fellow who is a retired rebuilder email me with a long list of SE's. I did a post here with his email. Look back in the posts I submitted. Or ask Dennis Foster he sells castings and machined. Do you have a machine to mill or plane the ways? If not you maybe money ahead buying a newer and better grinder. If you asked me to rebuild the machine I would estimate 60 to 80 hours. My rate is $100.00 per hour. I'm a pro. You being a hobby with out a power scraper and correct tools, it might take you twice or more long. The machine was made with no oil grooves and the former owner screwed up the ways.

So the best way would be to machine the X's out and glue on some Turcite.

The book I'm referring to is the Edward Connelly book. Machine Tool Reconditioning. Here are some pictures. If. You want to try to rebuild it yourself I would not recommend you do it as double V's are hard for a pro.
 

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From Connelly. If it's not clear enough I'll do a scan of just the setup.


View attachment 413404
The top right is the gage I mentioned. Bolting or clamping it together is key. If not, if it is loose it could move or slide apart and you would get a false reading. I added some extra pages too. I sell this book on EBay and if anyone messages me, I'll give you a 20% discount I can't send copies of the book as it's Copyrighted and the owner has sued people who send pfds of it. Rich
 
So the best way would be to machine the X's out and glue on some Turcite.
I'd have to say a big agree with this.
Turcite is so much easier and faster to work.
You can get away using it without machining. The table sits higher so screw mounts and such need to be shimmed.
Is this a hobby type deal and/or you do not mind putting in 200-500 hours as a labor of love?
Biax? Hand working this in steel is going to take some serious time and care.
Wait until you overcut one area and now all else has to come down.:wall:
There is also Moglice.
Bob
 
I'd have to say a big agree with this.
Turcite is so much easier and faster to work.
You can get away using it without machining. The table sits higher so screw mounts and such need to be shimmed.
Is this a hobby type deal and/or you do not mind putting in 200-500 hours as a labor of love?
Biax? Hand working this in steel is going to take some serious time and care.
Wait until you overcut one area and now all else has to come down.:wall:
There is also Moglice.
Bob
I flatten the ways before gluing on Turcite. If it's not flatten first you will have to scrape the Turcite thinner. It's complicated. Moglice needs to replicate against a flat surface. You can look at Moglice.com (I used to be a representative of Moglice) I would say Turcite is easier as you can scrape it to adjust it. Moglice dulls carbide when scraped.
 
Excellent, thank you Richard for both the comments and the images, I can read the copies just fine. Your last comment has caught me off guard, but I think I will plow ahead for now and make something better than it is now and ackowledge that it will not be prefect in the end. I have done a fair amount of optical polishing, clearly different techniques but similar in spirit with a lot of work and test and work and test.

I suspected that the Turcite route was likely. One last question for now, should I leave the original non worn areas intact for future reference and bond the Turcite in the newly machined groove or just face off the whole surface.

Also, I have read that there is an optimal Turcite contact pressure to operate at vs CI on CI. Is there a general rule to follow to reduce size of the Turcite (not thickness but area) or just cover the whole area and reduce PPI and POA? I would image reducing the Turcite area and keeping PPI is best, but how much is the question.

Ill check on the email reference you mention for Dennis and possible straight edges. Thanks again and suspect it will be awhile before I am back.
 
I'd have to say a big agree with this.
Turcite is so much easier and faster to work.
You can get away using it without machining. The table sits higher so screw mounts and such need to be shimmed.
Is this a hobby type deal and/or you do not mind putting in 200-500 hours as a labor of love?
Biax? Hand working this in steel is going to take some serious time and care.
Wait until you overcut one area and now all else has to come down.:wall:
There is also Moglice.
Bob
I can already tell overscrapping would feel like scratching fingernails on a chalkboard...(guess that dates me) thanks for the cautionary note. Fortunately these parts are relatively light. There is still one open question, do we start at the center of travel and move to the ends or start at one end and go to the other end?
Thomas
 
Yes Turcite gets slipper with smaller surface. You can call tstar.com and ask them about Rulon 142 as it's basically the same as Turcite B. About material is grade Linen Phenolic it is cheaper. McMaster Carr sells it. I would buy .062" thick on all the materials. As far as scraping the male side of the double V's
To scrape them the easy way to scrape them co-planer. Scrape the worst worn side first scraping it the same number of times on both sides until the scratches are gone and you have 15 to 25 PPI. Then scrape the other side center top flat clearance flat so it's flat and co-planer to the other side. Look at the pictures of the V and flat
Use the parallel that's clamped together. You can also file the narrow flat
Then use a mount a dial indicator / mag dase on the parallel and use a gage block under the indicator stem and scrape one side of the V at a time to .0.0005 Or .0002" co-planer. Then blue up the male sides and match fit in to the shorter side. Before gluing the material set a level on the base and level it. Then set the saddle on the base with the material under or between and set the level on the table top to check the top so it's level. If it's off scrape the base so it's within. 002". You can buy a .0002" level on eBay made in Poland that has a. V Base and flat
If you need an explanation call me. 651 338 8141. Rich
 
On Turcite or Rulon and making it a smaller size then the original cast iron ways is not always best because it leaves a gap where grit can get under the ways. Tha lower area you mentioned may be the reason the ways are so worn. If the lower area is area's are on top will act like a funnel. I would put zig zag oil grooves on the top center of the ways. You need to measure the movement of the so the open movement never exposes the oil grove to the open air. Leaving it to open air will let the oil drain out.
 
Especially if you have to do a lot of step-scraping (and you might consider taking rebuilding/improving old machines as part of your hobbies), you might consider building a KingWay tool (since finding one is practically impossible) and use it with both two orthogonal precision levels and a tenths indicator to track the parallelism of the ways. Precision levels are wonderful. However, be also aware that, if they are too sensitive, they will take much longer to settle and they will also track the changing of the ground by your moving around. In extreme cases you might have two more precision levels sitting orthogonal to each other on the part, to track all the movements and subtract them from the readings on the measuring level.

Precision levels help you a lot with surveying, especially when you do not have a long-enough straightedge for the job. But make sure you are understanding properly what you are measuring.

Paolo
 
Thanks for the inputs and for offer to call. I think most of it is clear in my head. It seems removing the factory unworn ridges is not a concern, but it seems like cutting the umbilical, since there is no going back. I will cobble together all of the above...and get a few more levels. A long enough SE is now the achillies heal for me to start!

I am putting together an auto-collimator as well as making a Fell type xy level. I am almost done grinding the sphere in the flat glass plate.

Richard - the updated email for the fellow you mention selling some stuff still comes back as "not found". Maybe the dot before "tk" is not needed? Can you please confirm. [email protected]

It sad to see all the hacked oil grooves; the horizontal ones will always create long term damage and the x hacks do nothing but extract any lubricant and allow grit to enter. Both are tragic modifications.
 
I've got a two-channel Talyvel electronic level up for sale here. It settles in a second or two and you can use it in differential mode to eliminate effects from the shifting of the ground as you move around.

 
I've got a two-channel Talyvel electronic level up for sale here. It settles in a second or two and you can use it in differential mode to eliminate effects from the shifting of the ground as you move around.

Quite the device you have here, but I think far above my measly budget. Thank you for the offer.
 








 
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