Best beginner machining center no programming experience

[eastonmade]

Hi Guys,

I am looking at getting a machining center in the spring. I build log splitters and am out sourcing a lot of the machine work, sharpening blades, bolt patterns etc. I have minimal experience with an accurite mill power.

I am looking for the easiest conversational control to use and what type of machine will suit me best. I am not familiar with g code at all, but am pretty good at picking things up.

Does anyone have any recommendations on which machine is best?

Does anyone have any recommendations on who would be best to buy off of in ontario or quebec canada? I don't mind buying in the US either, but would like to know I have some support.

 

[OldeBridgePHX]

So you can spend wildly different amounts of money ($10,000 to $1,000,000) depending on more exactly what you need to do. Also, many people purchase used due to the cost of many "general purpose" machining centers. Questions you will need to answer before anyone can give you advise:

Max size of biggest part you will want to machine?
Types of metal you will be machining?
Tolerances you need to hold?
Can the machine be down a few weeks for repair?
Do you have Space/Room/Power?
(the more info the better)

The "programming" part has gotten easier in recent years, but you will still be learning 3D CAD and CAM. Look up nyccnc on youtube for some videos.

 

[Davis In SC]

Hurco......

 

[Rewt]

If (big IF, since you haven't answered Olde's questions) it's a regular size logsplitter and you're just putting an edge on a cast wedge and milling A36 structural I-beam and the such...

We have two old KE 55 Makinos that really work well. We use them for on the fly repairs since they have conversational canned cycles. However, they do take MDI and DNC for programming. Good little machines. You could probably find a used one at a good price.

 

[yardbird]

Hurco......

Absolutely....

Brent

 

[eastonmade]

I would like to stay around $30,000. biggest part would have a travel of about 36" (main splitter wedge). its all mild steel. Tolerances +- .002 for the bolt patterns. Think should have around 20hp to make it efficient? I don't like fixing stuff. The less screwing around the better. I have a 400 amp single phase service right now. I have another thread going. Seems like I should be able to run a roto phase and transformer for power.

Thoughts on this?

thanks for all the help guys.

 

[eastonmade]

The "programming" part has gotten easier in recent years, but you will still be learning 3D CAD and CAM. Look up nyccnc on youtube for some videos.[/QUOTE]

checked this out. Will this work with any machining center or only certain one? Does it program the G code for you? I use solid works right now, can i import my part files? Seemed like it was something I could pick up quite easily.

 

[carbonbl]

checked this out. Will this work with any machining center or only certain one? Does it program the G code for you? I use solid works right now, can i import my part files? Seemed like it was something I could pick up quite easily.

Any decent CAM package will output G code that can be immediately run on your machine- IF it is properly configured/programmed and has the correct post-processor for your machine and machine control (control software version can also make a difference). Most big name CAM packages will have post-processors available for common machines, but definitely make sure the postprocessor support is there before you invest in a machine or CAM package. A previous employer of mine didn't check this and ended up paying several thousand additional $$ for a postprocessor for an oddball machine.

There are quite a few CAM packages that integrate directly into Solidworks. HSMWorks and Mastercam for Solidworks I have used and like, although there is a learning curve. HSMWorks has a free version (HSMExpress) for 2.5 axis work. I'm using it to write code for a Fadal with no major issues. You will get different recommendations depending on what people like, but I prefer CAM integrated directly into your CAD software as you can have a more streamlined process with fewer compatibility hiccups.

 

[SBAER]

What part of Ontario are you in? Maybe you just need to find some cheaper machine shops. Old order Mennonites will do CNC work pretty competitively, I can give you some names if you are interested. Design the machine to use more laser cut parts (they do laser work as well).

 

[OldeBridgePHX]

How much does a good condition "midsize" Hurco go for these days?

 

[twr]

If your buying a used machine try it find a machine with a good conversational control or you will need to learn G code or buy some Cam program to do it for. Cam programs and a good post can be big $$$. Also don't forget the cost of tools that go with the machine! SBAER had a good idea their! Where do you live? Also buying in the USA at 30 percent on the dollar and rigging cost from the USA and the tax at the border ect is not cheap these days. I would be looking for a machine around you, from a shop moving to a new machine, the machine dealers around here are not the best place to buy from.

 

[twr]

How much does a good condition "midsize" Hurco go for these days?

What ever the cost in the USA double and then some in Canada.

 

[Comatose]

If you're already in Solidworks, G code or not makes no difference, as writing programs by hand (vs using HSMworks for free) would be insane.

So you want a reasonably reliable 40x20 machine that's easy to run, easy to set up and learn, for under $30k tooled. That's Fadal territory to me.

*edit* are you really specifying a .002 tolerance for bolt patterns on a log splitter? That could have a LOT to do with why you don't like the prices you're getting from shops.

 

[twr]

Comatose is right Fadal are good from what i have read and key point= easy to get parts for and not to hard to fix most things.

 

[Garwood]

I would suggest a heavy box way jap machine from the late 80's or 90's with a Fanuc control. They are great steel machines. Tough as nails.

I have Mori MV series machines- MV-40, MV-45 and MV-65B. My MV-45 is a testament to the durability of these things. It's probably 20 years past it's expiration date with 110,000 production hours milling steel, yet it refuses to give me a reason to retire it.

A lot of commodity 4020 VMC's with linear rails out there, but they won't come close to the performance of a box way machine in steel.

Condition is important. Thoroughly inspect in person before writing the check.

For steel use a very important feature is air blast nozzles on/around the spindle. You can adapt to any machine, but the OE ones on my Mori's work better than any add-on air nozzles I have used on other machines.

Lots of air is important too.

You want a G-code machine and decent cam. Good route to go it hire a part-time programmer to get you up and running.

 

[vettedude]

I would like to stay around $30,000. biggest part would have a travel of about 36" (main splitter wedge). its all mild steel. Tolerances +- .002 for the bolt patterns. Think should have around 20hp to make it efficient? I don't like fixing stuff. The less screwing around the better. I have a 400 amp single phase service right now. I have another thread going. Seems like I should be able to run a roto phase and transformer for power.

Thoughts on this?

thanks for all the help guys.

30k?

Thats a joke right? Tooling is going to cost more than 30k, and before some moron pipes up and says otherwise if you are in business you are not going to want to buy a bunch of garbage that's going to take an eon to drill holes with. Getting this machine to work for you quickly is key. Good tooling and a good machine are not practical for 30k, Good tooling costs $, I make simple shit myself and tooling has far exceeded what i originally planed for and I think my tooling budget was almost as big as your budget.

And everyone suggestign a Fadal... Yeah sure if the guy had some experience MAYBE. He does not want to fix anything he specifically says he does not want to fix shit.

 

[twr]

Buying any machine used you better plan on fixing it at some point, so better learn some stuff or pay 600 to 1000 a day for a repair guy.

 

[Comatose]

If a guy isn't willing to fix shit, he'll be paying a repairman whether he buys a fadal or an old mori. FOr the same budget an old Mori will be older and break down as often if not more. Repair parts will be 2 to 5 grand, not $200-$500. The tech will cost exactly the same.

Not all of us are vette dudes. Some of us are Honda dudes or beat-up-old-pickup dudes. Horses for courses. Look at a log splitter. The guy needs maybe four solid endmill holders ($500 total) a half dozen ER-32 collet chucks and a set of collets ($1000 total) plus a pair of vises ($1000 total)

Add another $500 in clamps and setup stuff and he is up and running.

So, used fadal: $15,000
Tooling: $3000
Five days of repair tech in the first year: $5000
Fadal repair parts (figure thrust bearings, drawbar washers, one driver card or motor, one ballscrew, odds and ends): $3000
Rigging and shipping: $3000

Or we could declare what he's trying to do impossible.

 

[72bwhite]

Fadal 4020 is hard to beat, trained baboon can learn the controller in a day or two.
low number parts runs it's fast enough, just about every CAM package has a post for it
just like Haas. they are cheap to buy and cheap to keep running.
you can get free 2d cam software.
and you can actually get repair parts

 

[OldeBridgePHX]

Eastonmade,

I think folks here are just warning you that doing your own machining can/does have its own pain points, different from those you have now outsourcing it. As is said, $30K is on the low end for budget and it is almost guaranteed to not be "turnkey" - you're gonna be dealing with surprises and a somewhat steep curve on CAM. CAM is the part where you tell the computer how and in what order to remove the metal and with what tools. The "postprocessor" is the part that makes the G code for your specific controller. Note that some used machining centers are retrofitted with newer controllers than say the '80s/'90s "green screen" they originally came with. The idea to hire someone for a period of time to do work/teach you would help you avoid costly (as in a few-thousand dollars from the wrong g code) mistakes.

What is the biggest pain point with the current outside machinists? Is it turnaround or money? If you somewhat trust them maybe you should sit down and see if there are not changes to be made that benefit you both. If you ask for .002" tolerance or inflexible with dates and the shop is known to "meet the customer demands" that is going to cost one way or the other. Working with the machinist closer might prove that .010" might be great for both of you and they might share when their "other work" is slack.

Machining is a full-on profession in and of itself with plenty of hard-won knowledge in any long-term shop owners head. If you are looking to advance your business by bringing machining in-house just go in both eyes open, it's not cheap or easy - but can be rewarding.