Best small planer, or best forum to ask?

[richard newman]

I make banjo rims, and have to plane up lots of laminations, 3" x 48" x .150" to .325" thickness. Cherry, walnut, hard maple, and lots curly hard and soft maple, some of it extremely highly figured. I have an older SCM 20" planer, 4 knife head w/ sharpener, and it does a really good job with thin material, but with the squirrely grain stuff theres always some tear-out. So I have to run that stuff thru the widebelt, which is fine but much slower, have to work thru the grits up to 120 or 180, can't take much per pass.

So I've been thinking a Byrd Shelix head. I've been really impressed with the Shelix heads i have on my shaper and 6" Powermatic jointer, they cut ANYTHING without tearout. A replacement head for my SCM costs $3000, and for that I'm thinking I could get an entire smaller planer. Don't need much width for 3" strips, but is there a quality machine with Shelix head that will give a good, snipe free cut and hold up well? Are the 15" Powermatics contenders? Or I'd also be willing to refit an older machine with a shelix if I can keep it under 3k.

I know there aren't a lot of woodworkers on this site, but I trust you guys. Are there any other forums where I could get good, reliable info?

 

[stephen thomas]

How many strips do you want to feed side-by-side?
Would one at a time work, or not?

My thoughts are that an easy experiment would be something like the Belsaw/RBI/etal with a 4" long (wide) shaper head in it. Not the "luxe" solution, & maybe not the end machine, but a decent platform to try different tool geometry in before committing.

On a machine like that where the cutterhead slides over a heavy shaft, the cutter head geometry of a stock cutterhead can be changed by putting the knife in the front of the pocket with the gib on the other side, or reverse the cutterhead on the shaft, & run the knife forward in the back of the pocket. IOW, 3 practical geometries from one cutterhead, starting with stock cutter angle, then neutral, then "somewhere in between"

I recognize the machines mentioned are crappy basic platforms for planing because there is no pressure foot and the "chip breaker" is vestigial and virtually ineffective. But the option to experiment with cutter geometry on a budget could be attractive if such a machine shows up on C-list.

In a machine utilizing a short head, it would also be easy to run a cutterhead with knives on a skew for true helical cutting.

smt

 

[DDoug]

I have a 13" x 8" Rockwell planer with the "Belt driven Variable speed" that I want to sell.
Will slow right down for finish work. Might be cheap enough ($800) to play with head
as Stephen shows.

The motor is 3-phase, but being in the base as a hinge mount you should be able
to drop in whatever you need (including a 5 hp briggs if your amish...)

 

[Scruffy887]

Put a bevel on the FACE of your planer knives. Reduce the hook angle closer to zero. Those knives will be useless for softwood.

 

[stoneaxe]

Richard, Thanks for the recommendation on the Byrd Shelix heads- I can buy for the delta 8" jointer head for around $350. Maybe I will try it.

Here are some thoughts- The shelix head, like all inset heads of the type seems to have a very acute knife angle- I always assumed this would be a problem on figured stock, as the knife would tend to lift out the chip= this was based on my experience with a steep knife angle on my old 13" delta- there is a very acute 25 degree plus knife angle, and a compounding factor of a small cutter head diameter, which also increases the lift out on the chips. So it tears out bad on hardwood. (a dream in soft woods) So my impression was totally wrong. Hmm.

There is more to planing thin stock than tearout- the chip breaker, pressure bar and rollers need to be close to the cutter to give support to the piece. If the scmi is doing well here, may it is smart to bite the bullet and order the shelixhead.

RE Steven's idea of using a shaper or moulder head,- a custom built planer for narrow stock, designed specifically for thin material , would be a hoot. It would not take much HP, 2 VFD's for cutterhead and feed would give a lot of speed flexibility, double polyurethane feed rolls on each side and a strong springloaded pressure bar and chip breaker close to the head to keep snipe down to a minimum.

Try this idea- how about a vacuum port on the table, directly under the cutterhead, to help keep the stock from lifting ?

This would be a lot of work, but sometimes, it can be greatly reduced by using bits and pieces of existing machines. We have done a bunch of this sort of thing in our shop.

One more idea- how about double sided planer made from a jointer with a shelix head, with a top mounted second head and feed rolls, -the long jointer beds would be used for the table and bottom cut, and the upper head mounted over the outfeed table for the second top cut. This head would adjust up and down to control thickness. OK, I am spinning out here a little!

There are some oriental machines with factory spiral heads for not too much money- no idea on how well they work.

Woodweb is a pretty good place for info - oriented toward pro woodworkers.

 

[ahall]

My brother is looking at doing the same thing to his 24" powermatic.
The issues are cost and down time. For his machine, several heads were made.
If he pulls the head and makes the drawing and it comes up wrong, its his problem.
If he ships the old head to them and the new one does not fit, its their problem.
Down time is the issue. Turn around is not fast on a custom head.

Sounds like you have a good machine in the SCMI and Shelix may have good prints for your machine.

The Shelix head should reduce your down time for sharpening.
You have already proven it out on your jointer and shaper.

Yes, 3K is a chunk of change, but is the return on investment good.

Call up Shelix, check the cost, number of spirals, logistics and lead times, etc on the head.

Good chance you will improve your surface finish, decrease your down time, reduce your process time and save money on sanding belts.
You will not lose floor space to another machine and will maintain your current plaining capability.

Assuming it works well, you may be albe to market your old head and recupe a small fraction of your investment.

Down time while waiting for a new head will be the killer if they need your old head.

Put in new bearings while your at it.

 

[Pattnmaker]

Before I picked up my 20" Delta Invicta cheap at an auction I was using a 15" King planer (Imported machine) 15" Industrial Planer It was a good planer for my use in a commercial shop and was fairly cheap. The green machine that we cannot mention is probably similar. This is not a machine for a shop where it is running 4-5hr a day but sounds like your usage would likely be similar to mine where you might use it for 5-15 minutes a few times a day and then an hour once a week or so. They have a planer with the spiral cutter head but I might be inclined to buy the planer with the straight head and put on sheliix head.

 

[Pattnmaker]

Of course you could go to a machinery supplier with a piece of your figured wood and ask to run it through one of the machines with their spiral heads.

 

[stephen thomas]

Remember machinery dealers?

Hate to say it, but the only one I know set up with a test shop where you can do that is the green bear in Williamsport. They rep shellex heads, too.

smt

 

[Trboatworks]

I use a MiniMax planer/joiner setup with the Tersa head.
I use the smallest of the breed in a small commercial shop and have been very happy with it.
I would think any of the offerings from MiniMx, Felder/Hammer would suit.

I have done some fairly wild grained wood and no tear out.
As a added plus, the Tersa head allows different flavors of blades to be installed in a couple of minutes.
For a small shop, the combined feed footprint of the Joiner/planer it a big plus.

I would drive down to the Hammer/Felder shop in DE with some wood and try out the machines- nice folks.

http://www.feldergroupusa.com/


Another forum for this topic?:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/

I would not buy a Byrd head machine- a blade change would drive me nuts now that I am used to the fast and superbly functional Tersa gear.

 

[richard newman]

Thanks for all the replies, some interesting info, helped me clarify my needs.

First, my planer has never run more than a few hours per week, and can go a month or two untouched. I make rims in batches 4-6 times a year, and then will have to plane the raw stock, and then at least 200 laminations. That's much by commercial standards, but the quality of the cut is critical - can't tolerate tear-out or sniping. I'm planing very expensive and often highly figured stuff.

I don't want to spend $3K on a Byrd head for the SCM 20". I'd rather have a smaller machine for the lams, could even be 6".
I also don't want to build my own, as tempting as that is to me. Have done that with other projects, and it always takes way longer than expected and in this case I have to believe I can a machine that can work with some tweaking. Sorry for those who would like to see what kind if insane, overbuilt contraption I would make.

I like the Shelix head because in my experience it does a superb job with figured wood. It cuts scarf joints on the shaper that tapered out to paper thin in curly hard maple. I also have a Terminus head, similar to Tersa, and tho it cuts really well, it can't compare. I really like the Terminus system, and I can dust the knives on the surface grinder several times, and hone them super sharp, but it still doesn't compare to the Shelix. I think it's the combination of the shear and the interrupted cut. And anyone who still believes that carbide can't get as sharp as hss, as I did, needs to feel the edge on those inserts. I'm an enthusiastic convert!

So, still hoping to find a smaller planer I can fit with a Shelix and be right back to work.

 

[Trboatworks]

I wouldn't put the Terminus clone on the same field as the Tersa & one other point is sharpening the blades seems a lost effort on this type of gear.
I use carbide blades mostly as I mill mostly teak.
I drop in a M42 set when needed- no sharpening on either though.

Interesting question though as I run the planer day in day out.
When asked it mills fine lams in curly wood & I would not think to replace it for better results.

Do look in on Sawmill creek- some knowledgeable instrument builders post there.

 

[richard newman]

I'm not so sure the Terminus is inferior to the Tersa. They have both at the RIT woodshop, I'll have to ask Will Tracey, the shop tech, his impression. I had heard long ago from other experienced people that the Terminus hss knives last longer than the Tersa. Maybe that's changed

Sharpening seems entirely reasonable, can do a batch in just a few minutes. Seems wasteful not to. The Terminus knives have a flat back which is easy to kiss on the grinder, doesn't require a fixture like Tersa.

All that said, I've been meaning to bring some lams over to Will's shop to run thru his Tersa equipped SCM planer. Clearly time to try it, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, will report back on results.

 

[stephen thomas]

Sorry for those who would like to see what kind if insane, overbuilt contraption I would make.

smt

 

[northernsinger]

I want to point out that the work the original poster wishes to do is a kind of work that was accomplished thousands of times over for many, many years with straight knives in a carefully set up old fashioned planer. No need for this that or the other thing.

In general I can tell from many years of experience and observation myself that some people become biased in favor of new techniques and new machinery while my own bias is in favor of old machinery. Sometimes I get them set up well and sometimes not so well but the problem in the latter cases has been me, I think, not the machine, or, at least, I don't blame the machine.

So I suggest (in general, not a pointed answer to this particular question) that one should work with what they have and look within themselves for solutions which are likely to be there.

 

[stephen thomas]

Zen & the art of planers?

Bob, your points are apt, face beveled knives are the old skool solution. But then it makes the (primary/only) planer impractical and inefficient for run of the shop work. Richard's application is a repeat job, production application. In a situation like that, the most efficient tool is a purpose set up machine, used only for that app. The problem for the small shop being 1.) space & 2.) time, either to earn the money to buy the solution, or in many cases (I would suggest Richard's ability especially) the time to make the uber-solution.

Practically, the dedicated machine is the most efficient. (In production): "The man who needs a machine is already paying for it every day", etc. Economically, it boils down to up-front capital resources; & longer term to pay-back period.

I'm guessing that in the OP's case, continuing to sand in the wide-belt will be most efficient both ways (conserves material, predictible, but wastes time) for current levels of production until some free time & or a suitable donor machine turns up of its own accord (more Zen )

smt

 

[coolidge]

Since you need to take thin cuts on figured wood even with a shelix I'm not sure how much time you would be saving vs using your belt sander. Maybe go with a 2nd belt sander with a courser grit. I have shelix heads in both my jointer and planer, love them but in this I'd stick with a belt sander. Planers have their own set of problems, snipe, outfeed roller damage, infeed roller damage when you are trying to take light cuts. I have run a bunch of curly maple through planers but thicker where I have room to sand or joint away the problems. Had a big problem with one planer wood chips getting smashed down into the wood by the outfeed planer denting the surface, the textured outfeed rollers on that same planer pressing the textured pattern into the wood. Yeah the more I think about it the more I'd opt for a belt sander.

 

[Pattnmaker]

Remember machinery dealers?

Hate to say it, but the only one I know set up with a test shop where you can do that is the green bear in Williamsport. They rep shellex heads, too.

smt

I have a local woodworking dealer with 2 stores one 5 minutes away the other 20 away but 5 minutes from home that while they don't have machines set up ready to cut, they would likely do a setup to test a machine if they knew I was a serious potential buyer. They are a dealer for Delta, General, and a number of import brands. There is at least 1 other independent dealer like this and a Canadian company similar to the coloured bear within an hour drive.

The high end production dealers are around as well but I am not familiar with them as I don't use any of that type of equipment.

Why not go down to the coloured bear store with a sample and see how it turns out? Their 15" planer with the spiral head is cheaper than a new head for your other planer.

 

[CAPCNC]

make a jig to pass the strips thru the planer at an angle. I do that with the hard to plane stuff. one quick pass thru the widebelt.... life is good.

 

[richard newman]

I just picked up an old Delta 13" with a stripped worm gear for $125. Thinking to re-do the feed drive with a variable speed dc motor. Maybe make a new rubber covered out-feed roll. I won't be able to get to it for some time, have too much work backed up. Maybe that's just as well, the shelix head is $900, have to really think this one out and be sure it's a good idea.