Best starter cnc

[EmGo]

But a small 3 axis vmc is the next step.

If you have your heart set on an enclosed vmc with tool changer, Fadal. Haas would be another choice except they've orphaned the older controls.

There's others out there but with your experience level, those two have the most information and help. Bobw's posts alone could keep you running New is probably not that good an idea, because the price is too high for a speculative deal. Not being mean but at this point you have zero experience, so keeping the cost down is important.

With higher overhead it's real easy to implode. Sure, some day you will make a bunch of money but you have to get there first. With too high a monthly overhead you'll never make it through the first disaster.

There are always disasters. Did you predict this virus ?

The little ones are toys, just don't go there. And everything costs a lot more than you think. Every estimate on costs you make ? Multiply by three, and you'll probably still be low.

Mostly make and sell your own stuff. Job shopping will kill you.

 

[TheBigLebowski]

I had a tormach 1100s3 in my garage at one point, absolutely do not buy one. I kind of knew better but I decided to try one - would've been better off burning hundred dollar bills. Most all of those youtube guys hawking tormachs are paid sponsors.

Its kind of funny - Tormach's claim to fame is that they are a "garage friendly" machine - but they really aren't. Even on a conservative cut with a small/sharp 4 flute endmill, the combination of chatter/rattle from the enclosure is absurd. A garage friendly machine should be nice and quite - the tormach sounds like you threw a handful of coins in a blender and turned it on - those same cuts are whisper quiet on a Fadal. I wound up doing everything I could on my bridgeport so as to not disturb the neighbors too much.

Yes, they have introduced a Bt30 spindle and "servos" (clearpath servos that take step and direction - only outputting a fault if significant following error occurs), but they have not addressed the real problems with the machines. Lack of horsepower and lack of rigidity.

The frame/castings are very nearly identical to those on the original machine, and the spindle motor is identical - a 1.5 hp 3 phase 3600rpm unit. The 5k rpm machine that I had was absolutely gutless - a cut that I had no problem making on a 1 Horse step-pulley bridgeport would stall the 1.5hp tormach. I doubt changing the Vfd and then doubling the spindle rpm to 10k has made it better.

The mill itself weighs at best 1000lbs, the rosy system weight tormach claims includes the stand, enclosure, and coolant setup.

Some Better options than the Tormach, all of which one guy could move around in his garage, are:
-Haas MiniMill ~4k lbs
-Hass Tm(0/1/2) ~4k lbs
-Fadal TRM ~3.5k lbs
-Fadal Vmc10/Vmc15/Emc/2016l ~5-6k lbs
-Prototrak Bridgeport type mill ~2-3k lbs
-prototrak bed mill ~3k lbs

 

[thewynner98]

If you have your heart set on an enclosed vmc with tool changer, Fadal. Haas would be another choice except they've orphaned the older controls.

There's others out there but with your experience level, those two have the most information. New is probably not that good an idea, because the price is too high for a speculative deal. Not being mean but at this point you have zero experience, so keeping the cost down is important. With higher overhead it's real easy to implode. Some day sure you will make a bunch of money but you have to get there first. With too high a monthly overhead you'll never make it through the first disaster.

The little ones are toys, just don't go there. and everything costs a lot mre than you think. Every estimate on costs you make ? Multiply by three, and you'll probably still be low.

Im not concerned about the payment as ive done the math and double checked. Mcdonalds would pay my bills and the payment at that 35-40k mark with the other income i have. Ive accepted that I may not make much or anything to start with the new mill but without trying ill never know. And its not like it would drown me. This isnt my only source of income and im fairly well covered otherwise. My only concern with an older machine is being able to attain financing. New is usually easier in that regard

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[thewynner98]

I had a tormach 1100s3 in my garage at one point, absolutely do not buy one. I kind of knew better but I decided to try one - would've been better off burning hundred dollar bills. Most all of those youtube guys hawking tormachs are paid sponsors.

Its kind of funny - Tormach's claim to fame is that they are a "garage friendly" machine - but they really aren't. Even on a conservative cut with a small/sharp 4 flute endmill, the combination of chatter/rattle from the enclosure is absurd. A garage friendly machine should be nice and quite - the tormach sounds like you threw a handful of coins in a blender and turned it on - those same cuts are whisper quiet on a Fadal. I wound up doing everything I could on my bridgeport so as to not disturb the neighbors too much.

Yes, they have introduced a Bt30 spindle and "servos" (clearpath servos that take step and direction - only outputting a fault if significant following error occurs), but they have not addressed the real problems with the machines. Lack of horsepower and lack of rigidity.

The frame/castings are very nearly identical to those on the original machine, and the spindle motor is identical - a 1.5 hp 3 phase 3600rpm unit. The 5k rpm machine that I had was absolutely gutless - a cut that I had no problem making on a 1 Horse step-pulley bridgeport would stall the 1.5hp tormach. I doubt changing the Vfd and then doubling the spindle rpm to 10k has made it better.

The mill itself weighs at best 1000lbs, the rosy system weight tormach claims includes the stand, enclosure, and coolant setup.

Some Better options than the Tormach, all of which one guy could move around in his garage, are:
-Haas MiniMill ~4k lbs
-Hass Tm(0/1/2) ~4k lbs
-Fadal TRM ~3.5k lbs
-Fadal Vmc10/Vmc15/Emc/2016l ~5-6k lbs
-Prototrak Bridgeport type mill ~2-3k lbs
-prototrak bed mill ~3k lbs

I agree. Im definitely not going tormach. Now used fadal/haas or a new syil is the next question

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[TheBigLebowski]

So long as you are mechanically Inclined I would be patient and look for a used machine in good condition. You can score a nice small VMC for 10k or less so long as you are not in a big hurry.

Other things to consider. Do you have an air compressor that is capable of supplying enough air to a vmc? What kind of Power do you have and how many amps are available? Is the area your going to put the mill heated? Is it Dry? Big Temperature swings lead to condensation and rust, as does high humidity. Both of those can make a mess out of your mill pretty quickly.

 

[thewynner98]

So long as you are mechanically Inclined I would be patient and look for a used machine in good condition. You can score a nice small VMC for 10k or less so long as you are not in a big hurry.

Other things to consider. Do you have an air compressor that is capable of supplying enough air to a vmc? What kind of Power do you have and how many amps are available? Is the area your going to put the mill heated? Is it Dry? Big Temperature swings lead to condensation and rust, as does high humidity. Both of those can make a mess out of your mill pretty quickly.

Wife and I are investing in a hvac for the shop for christmas and im not even going to be really looking until Feb of 22. 60 gallon air comp 5hp and I have a 20hp 3 phase rotary converter and a 50a 240 single phase circuit free in the shop when im not welding which I wont be doing both at the same time ever.

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[Garwood]

If I hadn't bought a real VMC early on I never would have made it. My first CNC was a 6000 lb knee mill. It was not workable for making money.

There's reasons why certain machines are a given size and mass. If you want to make parts you have to get the right equipment.

Lots of good used machines. $10k will buy a nice used capable VMC and tooling.

Last summer I picked up a Takisawa MAC-V2E to take the smaller parts off my bigger machines. It's 16x22 travels, 10K RPM, 9500 lbs, footprint is 6' wide by 8' deep. I paid $3500 for the machine, added an 8" 4th to it for $1500 and have spent about $1000 on tooling and maintenance for it. A machine like that would be a great way to get started and if you can't make a hole for a machine that size then you really do not have enough room to make parts.

 

[norb]

This is a no brainer. Get a used box way Fadal. You can pick them up cheap. Plenty of aftermarket parts and support for the mechanicals and control. They have a low overall height also.

 

[Garwood]

Given that the mill is only to support his custom car business he can get by just fine with a knee mill. Lots of decently priced, well supported CNC knee mills on the market. A B'port size mill will be a quantum leap over what he has now and shouldn't require financing.

No, he says he wants to replace working on cars with job shop CNC work.

 

[Garwood]

This is a no brainer. Get a used box way Fadal. You can pick them up cheap. Plenty of aftermarket parts and support for the mechanicals and control. They have a low overall height also.

Unless you need to interpolate a hole that's round or pulling the table and saddle to replace the turcite isn't on your top 10 list of favorite things.

You can make money with a Fadal, but you can make more money with a Japanese Fanuc controlled machine. The Fadal probably costs more because of it's appeal to hobby types these days.

 

[mhajicek]

Be aware, despite what people are saying here they are barely better than a Tormach 1100MX.

I agree with most of what you said, but this point is dead wrong. The Tormach can't nibble aluminum properly; the Haas VF and VM series machines (recent years) can rip Titanium just fine. As I believe I mentioned before, my little baby CM-1 has way more balls than a Tormach 1100MX. More HP, faster feeds, better rigidity, and way more accuracy. I can literally split tenths on it in metric mode, and yes, the parts prove it out.

Service around here has been great, maybe the HFO near you sucks. Productivity Inc. in MN is responsive, fast, and gets the job done, and parts are reasonably priced. That VF-3SS I used for six years was down for a total of four days over that whole time.

I've never needed a spindle, but IIRC people pay around $3k give or take, they're in stock, and you can usually get the machine back up in a couple days. Just for comparison, I've heard of some other (higher end) companies charging $30K - $60K with a multi-month wait.

 

[LOTT]

Can the OP fill us in on what he's making? Size, material, tolerances?

 

[thewynner98]

Can the OP fill us in on what he's making? Size, material, tolerances?

Typically automotive loose tolerance aluminum. Hoping to get into mostly steel/aluminum and some ti. Tolerance according to customer spec. Would like decent repeatability.

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[taiwanluthiers]

You know I was asking about Haas with neighbors who runs actual CNC machines. He said Haas is essentially second rate brand name... he and his friends only use YCM machines...

永進機械工業股份有限公司

I have no idea about CNC machines but the ones he uses

永進機械工業股份有限公司

are used by nearly all CNC shops in Taiwan, for making tools and die and general CNC machining. Works well if properly maintained... ones next door sound like a banshee though because the spindle probably needs reconditioning.

But anyways, if you are going to spend on a VMC type machine, spend wisely, especially when banks and mortgages are involved.

If buying used see the machine in person and run some programs on it, and inspect the surface when done. Things to watch for: sound spindle makes when running, sound tool changer makes when changing, as well as how long it takes to change (slow change means something is worn or needs cleaning). Surface finishes: Machine that has been crashed will have poor surface finishes, as well as nasty spindle sound.

Machine a circle and see the runout of it. Poor runout = worn ways.

If OP wants repeatability then forget used machines. Like I said, poor runout = worn ways. You want to mill steel titanium with tight tolerance? Old machine won't do. CNC isn't like manual machines where you can adjust your machining to account for machine wear. On a manual mill you can sneak up to achieve tight tolerance even if you are going to take all day to machine a part. With CNC this is going to be a lot harder to do, or rather you are going to be scrapping a lot of parts getting it right.

But the YCM machine in question, I've seen them in action machining stuff to tight tolerance, using only table movement.

 

[LOTT]

Typically automotive loose tolerance aluminum. Hoping to get into mostly steel/aluminum and some ti. Tolerance according to customer spec. Would like decent repeatability.

Size? A used Robodrill might be perfect, or maybe a ProtoTrac bed mill could be a good fit (in theory, though i can't actually think of a scenario...). Totally different machines, but horses for courses.

 

[Garwood]

You know I was asking about Haas with neighbors who runs actual CNC machines. He said Haas is essentially second rate brand name... he and his friends only use YCM machines...

永進機械工業股份有限公司

I have no idea about CNC machines but the ones he uses

永進機械工業股份有限公司

are used by nearly all CNC shops in Taiwan, for making tools and die and general CNC machining. Works well if properly maintained... ones next door sound like a banshee though because the spindle probably needs reconditioning.

But anyways, if you are going to spend on a VMC type machine, spend wisely, especially when banks and mortgages are involved.

If buying used see the machine in person and run some programs on it, and inspect the surface when done. Things to watch for: sound spindle makes when running, sound tool changer makes when changing, as well as how long it takes to change (slow change means something is worn or needs cleaning). Surface finishes: Machine that has been crashed will have poor surface finishes, as well as nasty spindle sound.

Machine a circle and see the runout of it. Poor runout = worn ways.

If OP wants repeatability then forget used machines. Like I said, poor runout = worn ways. You want to mill steel titanium with tight tolerance? Old machine won't do. CNC isn't like manual machines where you can adjust your machining to account for machine wear. On a manual mill you can sneak up to achieve tight tolerance even if you are going to take all day to machine a part. With CNC this is going to be a lot harder to do, or rather you are going to be scrapping a lot of parts getting it right.

But the YCM machine in question, I've seen them in action machining stuff to tight tolerance, using only table movement.

Condition is far more important than age.

Way wear is not really a factor on decent machines. Not boring a round hole is more than likely bad thrust bearings, nothing to do with the ways.

I've had a few older heavy box way CNC mills with damaged ways and I stoned off the worst of it and ran the shit out of them for years, more than a decade on one of them. There was no indication of a way problem at all. Nothing bad ever happened.

In the latter half of the 1980's Mobil changed up the formulation of Vactra 2. The new version wasn't backwards compatible. They said it was, but it wasn't. Lots of CNC's got fucked up ways in the late 80's when the way oil coagulated in the lines.

Most of my big manual machines have fairly worn ways. It isn't a problem for 99.9% of parts and knowing it's there makes it a non-issue.

 

[mkd]

"Truck mounted VMC" now that could be the start of a Haas adverting campaign.

Product Details
this guy has been know to make an appearance at NASCAR races on an enclosed semi-trailer for demo purposes. Ridiculously too good for a starter shop but nice eye candy

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

The used VMC market has some really attractive deals on machines that are far more rigid and productive than a TorMach for the same or less money.
I'm seeing gorgeous Okuma VMCs for under $15k and ditto for other major brands.

 

[taiwanluthiers]

The only problem with used machine is that banks may not want to loan on it... or it could be harder to get loans for it unless your credit rating is really high. Usually banks want to loan for a new machine because they can guarantee the machine is in good working order and there won't be unforeseen problems, and also the bank makes money if they need to repossess it due to nonpayment.

So if I don't have 15,000 in cash to buy a machine, but I could come up with say 5000, I could buy a machine and then get a loan for it.

In any case I have little use for a CNC because I'd have to be making immediate profit if I have one, as the cost to upkeep them and the payment will be more than my budget at the moment. And all I'd do with it is accept contract jobs, which pays shit and is highly competitive.

For example I looked at Xometry and I ran the number... for the money that I'd get for a given job most of that (as much as 80% or more) will go into shipping to Germany from Taiwan. So I'd essentially PAY money to work a job for Xometry, and that's not including if customer rejects a part because of a little scratch somewhere.

You have to be an idiot or already sunken a huge amount of money on a CNC to be doing work for them.

I actually emailed Xometry for clarification on this matter, especially because COVID delays. I have not heard a response.

I have to machine a part, send it to Germany and it has to arrive in about 4 days. That is not possible unless I Fedex it.

 

[EmGo]

In any case I have little use for a CNC

So why are you giving advice to other people ? If you've never owned one, then maybe don't hand out advice on buying and running them ?