Best value and function shaft alignment tools?

[DyneTable]

I am buying some equipment for a research lab that partially works on the design and testing of electric motors. As new motors are developed the shafts will need to be aligned on the test dynamometers. Are there recommended shaft alignment tools? Ideally I would like to find something under $1,000.

It seems that on the high end are the laser alignment tools like

Fluke 830 Laser Shaft Alignment Tool - Way out of my price range
Fluke 830 Laser Shaft Alignment Tool

SKF TKSA series - Unknown pricing but probably out of my price range
SKF Shaft alignment tools

Is there a recommended dial indicator based alignment tools? Such as

Dial Indicator Alignment Tools - Mr. Shims

or

Model #20RA Shaft Alignment System Specs Page

 

[tdmidget]

Starrett no 668. ABCor d depending on max shaft size. I know the lasers are expensive but they will record your measurements, some will even transmit them to your customer. They are faster as they will tell you how much to move and the amount of shim correction required.

 

[DyneTable]

Starrett no 668. ABCor d depending on max shaft size. I know the lasers are expensive but they will record your measurements, some will even transmit them to your customer. They are faster as they will tell you how much to move and the amount of shim correction required.

Do you know if the Starrett alignment clamp sets work with Mitutoyo dial indicators? Mitutoyo doesn't seem to make a similar set from what I can see.

 

[DMF_TomB]

coupling alignment

I am buying some equipment for a research lab that partially works on the design and testing of electric motors. As new motors are developed the shafts will need to be aligned on the test dynamometers. Are there recommended shaft alignment tools? Ideally I would like to find something under $1,000.

It seems that on the high end are the laser alignment tools like

Fluke 830 Laser Shaft Alignment Tool - Way out of my price range
Fluke 830 Laser Shaft Alignment Tool

SKF TKSA series - Unknown pricing but probably out of my price range
SKF Shaft alignment tools

Is there a recommended dial indicator based alignment tools? Such as

Dial Indicator Alignment Tools - Mr. Shims

or

Model #20RA Shaft Alignment System Specs Page

.
i usually make something up to clamp on easy and hold a indicator. usually end up with a few different sizes as bigger one shown is too big for little motors.
.
shown is clamp on bracket with plastic to not scratch a polished roller shaft. usually for coupling alignment just making something from aluminum that holds 3/8" drill rod shaft so normal indicator clamps can be used is enough.

 

[tdmidget]

Do you know if the Starrett alignment clamp sets work with Mitutoyo dial indicators? Mitutoyo doesn't seem to make a similar set from what I can see.

I believe that their no 1961 will work but the Starrett set comes with indicators.

 

[deltap]

Depending on the application you can use an insert type coupling which does not require great accuracy. You can do it quickly with a straight edge and a feeler gauge. Plan to spend about 4 hrs. per alignment using dial indicators. Laser is best and fastest if the budget will tolerate it. Alignment changes as motor heats up.

 

[tdmidget]

If by "insert" coupling you mean something like a Lovejoy Then the "gross" alignment might be ok for light duty but for accurate HP measurement it will likely eat power if not properly aligned. Accurate output readings will likely require a decent alignment. If they are going to the trouble of dyno readings these are probably too large for Lovejoy type couplings.

 

[JS]

I think you need a better budget.

Starrett S668CZ is around $700

a two Mitutoyo test indicators 513-442T and your in business.

Starrett 657H 3/8 to 3/8 adapter fits the Mitutoyo dovetail adapter.

two magnetic bases with 1" indicators to help you when you move the feet.

This book Shaft Alignment Handbook 3rd edition

It's food for thought and top of the line.

A new ROTALIGN[SUP]®[/SUP] ULTRA IS will set you back an easy 30K, but I can do the following with it: monitor vibration, thermal growth, soft foot, shaft alignment, live machine monitoring and print reports and a few other things if the other options are purchased....

I'm not impressed with a few of the other machines we've tried here at the work....

 

[Tom Doudna]

I think you need a better budget.................

A new ROTALIGN[SUP]®[/SUP] ULTRA IS will set you back an easy 30K, but I can do the following with it: monitor vibration, thermal growth, soft foot, shaft alignment, live machine monitoring and print reports and a few other things if the other options are purchased........

I was going to mention the Rotalign when the OP mentioned the Fluke 830 as "high end". And you are right about the budget. The good laser stuff is pretty pricey.


We have a Rotalign at work and we just bought a VibrAlign unit that will do flatness checks in addition to shaft alignment. With the add on stuff to do the flatness checks and some accessories it was a little more than the Rotalign. Nice unit. If your using this stuff on a regular basis it is worth the price of the top of the line stuff.

We had a couple of the Starrett 668 kits at some plants I used to take care of and they work fine. Depending on what level of accuracy you are after, what volume of work you will be doing and if you want to save alignment data you can spend anywhere from a few hundred bucks to well over $30K. Like any other tool, you have to decide what it is worth to you and if it will pay out.

 

[DMF_TomB]

shaft alignment

making brackets to hold indicators is easy part
.
putting indicator bracket on a piece of pipe to determine sag amount for that length and shape of connecting rods and indicator is relatively easy too.
.
drawing the indicator readings on graph paper to approximate scale is the harder part to determine moves required. i have been drawing on the floor near a pump and motor getting liquid dripped on me and graph paper before. and if somebody is watching you it can make a person nervous. it can easily take 1 to 3 minutes to calculate a move. i took a week long course on it and was given a book on it. if you have not done it for a few years it can take 10 minutes or more to refresh your self on how to do it again
.
the laser alignment and even electronic indicator type connected to a small hand held computer and most better ones are wireless connections now certainly makes the calculating moves part much easier and usually only takes 30 seconds to get a new set of readings and calculate moves needed. also many have the ability to record measurements and print them out. usually laser kit has a one page set of instructions for basic laser coupling alignment. so if you have not done it in years you can read the one page of basic instructions and do it in less than 5 minutes
.
laser alignment equipment is not cheap but usually anybody doing a alot of alignment eventually retires the indicator brackets and uses the laser alignment. you might only save a hour for a whole day of coupling alignment work. but like trying to do math without a calculator it sure is easier if you have one.

 

[adammil1]

I am in the opposite boat right now I need to align a shaft really tightly as it is messing up the shipping of a $1.5million dollar rig and also stands in the way of hitting a very high value incentive target financially that will easily pay for any laser alignment system under the sun. We have an SKF TKSA-20 and the thing absolutely sucks! For starters the thing has dial levels on it to help you go both horizontal and vertical for the reads but the levels are located on the face of the laser tool. The thing was clearly designed by someone who never really used it in the field as simply placing the bubbles on the outer edge of the case would make the thing a whole lot more useful, as for tight up alignments it is useless, you just can't read the bubbles!

I see fortunately they now have discontinued it but I have a part on my stand which we previously thought we could use the high speed disk couplings themselves to help align our torque transducer between two aligned shafts but now have learned we can't. The problem is the damn thing is located in the tightest of location and there isn't much room to swing things too well. I do have some clearance but the stupid TKSA-20 is more or less useless due to where they stuck the level bubbles! So I was curious if anyone could recommend a better unit than the TKSA-20 if budget really isn't much of a problem. Also the other thing I must say about the TKSA-20 is I never trusted its movement recommendations that much, and found the need to iterate quite a bit. It always seemed to be little more accurate than +/-0.002" or so as I found my readings weren't always repeatable. I would usually take the best average of 3 readings to determine where I was. Is that typical of these or is my unit not the greatest?

Thanks,

Adam

 

[Winmac]

when I worked in the pulp and paper industry and used the "fixture shaft 2000" exclusively this may be dated now but at the time I'm sure it was the best u could buy. the heads had inclinometers built in for horzontial / vertical positioning, could also do an alignment on three shots taken randomly, it was nice when there was stuff in the way.

 

[Tom Doudna]

...............So I was curious if anyone could recommend a better unit than the TKSA-20 if budget really isn't much of a problem.......
Thanks,

Adam

How much time do you have? I know the VibrAlign guy here came to our site and did a demo with the unit on one of our machines so we could play with it a little and make sure it was what we wanted. Rotalign salesmen will do the same thing. We have a Rotalign guy that comes by and checks in with us every couple of years to see if we need anything. The Rotalign guy has come to our site and done some training too.

I think you should source out a local rep for some of the better units and see if they will come do a demo for you. That way you can make sure the unit will work with whatever clearance issues you have to deal with. I would be willing to bet if you are interested in buying one, they will come do a demo for you.

 

[Tom Doudna]

......................drawing the indicator readings on graph paper to approximate scale is the harder part to determine moves required. i have been drawing on the floor near a pump and motor getting liquid dripped on me and graph paper before. and if somebody is watching you it can make a person nervous. it can easily take 1 to 3 minutes to calculate a move. i took a week long course on it and was given a book on it. if you have not done it for a few years it can take 10 minutes or more to refresh your self on how to do it again...........

Back before we got the lasers when we were using the indicators all the time we had some excel spread sheets set up to do the math. You just entered the spacing between the feet and the indicator readings. The spreadsheet did the math and spit out the moves. I don't know if I still have a copy of that or not. I'll have to look next week when I go back to work. That was a while back and I have been in management for almost 8 years now to boot.

 

[JS]

Occasionally, I'll get pissed at the laser and throw the dials on to see if it's full of BS.......always cross check your equipment. .I really do like the laser, but some-days it will have me asking WTF?...............Borrow or rent one and see how easy it is to use. Depending on your foundation you could be done in 60 minutes...... Sometimes an indicator trick or two with the laser will get used because that's the only way your alignment is going to get done.........I've had jobs were it was unrepeatable, throw indicators on check run out, check for worn bearings etc... usually unrepeatable in the mine equals worn bearings........or bad foundation soft foot squishy foot etc....The ROTALIGN[SUP]®[/SUP] ULTRA IS is a Cadillac compared to some other machines out there, with only 70 degrees needed to do an alignment reading you can't beat it.

 

[adammil1]

How much time do you have? I know the VibrAlign guy here came to our site and did a demo with the unit on one of our machines so we could play with it a little and make sure it was what we wanted. Rotalign salesmen will do the same thing. We have a Rotalign guy that comes by and checks in with us every couple of years to see if we need anything. The Rotalign guy has come to our site and done some training too.

I think you should source out a local rep for some of the better units and see if they will come do a demo for you. That way you can make sure the unit will work with whatever clearance issues you have to deal with. I would be willing to bet if you are interested in buying one, they will come do a demo for you.

Not nearly as much as I would like, I think I need to be done with my alignment on this unit come Thursday so that we are ready to start breaking it down to ship ASAP. This won't be really easy as there is a ton of other work to do between now and then in terms of running and tuning it, and since it is mostly good for a bad torque reading I have been told my work needs to go to off shift times. I am now blanking on whether or not it was Vibraline or if it was Rotaline but one of the higher end alignment reps is coming in first thing Monday morning to help me out but both he as well as his competitor are otherwise out of the area for the next week. Between this unit and the one that is coming right behind it that has a performance incentive well into the 7figures based on hitting operational status on a given date getting the right tool wouldn't be that big of an issue if only I can guarantee it will work. Right now the bigger issues I am fighting are as follows;

1. The SKF TKSA-20 performed so miserably that half the people at work think the laser systems are junk and shouldn't be trusted!
2. We are in a very tight space to do any alignment in as there isn't much room to work in so this may be a lot harder than most alignments.
3. Typically our culture isn't to just drop $8K to figure out if something works, (this project is a bit unique in that our customer has set enormous stakes based on their need for our custom designed/built machine) and after paying for SKF's $3000 paper weight people aren't too excited about risking $8K on another one!

I suspect that the best way to success is to just find a firm who does this every day and get them in ASAP, but the bigger issue is with the clock ticking there isn't much room to try things that don't work. The owner of the company and most senior engineer told me his experience with hiring outside consultants for difficult problems is that often they come in and merely "show you why your problem is so difficult" and he added that he had a lot more faith in my abilities to solve this one based on my familiarity with our machine and the work he has seen me do than he did an outside consultant fresh on the project! While the vote of confidence sure was nice to have it will sure make this one difficult. If nothing else the Shaft Alignment handbook should be in first thing Monday morning and I may just have to get really good using indicators!

 

[gmatov]

Tom,

"Back before we got the lasers when we were using the indicators all the time we had some excel spread sheets set up to do the math. You just entered the spacing between the feet and the indicator readings. The spreadsheet did the math and spit out the moves."

I learned to do that in '66 from one of the best alignment guys I ever knew. Westinghouse. Died young, about 55 YO, but taught me a hell of a lot. I became leadman on afternoon turn, based on his guidance.'93 or 4, US Steel sent me and one other guy to a laser alignment class. (BFD, all WE had to do was get a crane shaft welded back up so the crane could keep running.)

I once in the Westinghouse had to align a 14 unit drive train, because SOMEBODY including a female engineer convinced my big boss that a 200T rotor was being pushed by our drive line. I and my helper checked the entire system, did what movements WERE necessary, 1/2 thou or less. The big boss said he wanted my work inspected. MY boss said "If you doubt his work, I will quit right now."

In the end rhe turbogenerator, all 750 T of it was mislocated. When it came to electrical center, some may know what that is, IT pushed my gearbox, not the reverse My Philadelphia O/U gearbox,with herringbone gears could not DO that. That was all done with indicators and feeler gages. I think all the attraction with lasers has to do with boosting sales. I only used one, but I got closer with a 6" rule and feelers than the others did WITH the new system. What I needed was done in my head. They had to "graph" it.

As far as indicator droop, do you hang a laser over or under a coupling you also have droop. I had to calculate that. Does the new laser system automatically take that into the equation?

adamill hits it on the head when he says that lasers MAY give good result MAY give bad result. I liked my tactile alignments. I never had a bad alignment job and I have aligned 9 and 10 piece shovel sets, over 70' long. Laser and computer, nah!

Maybe you HAVE no people who CAN do this in the old way. If that is the case maybe you should hire an old man. If for no other reason than to make sure the laser does it right. (I ain't available, I like being retired.)

George

 

[Tom Doudna]

I done plenty of alignments with dials George, as have several of the guys that work for me.

Enjoy your retirement.

 

[DMF_TomB]

coupling alignment

Tom,

"Back before we got the lasers when we were using the indicators all the time we had some excel spread sheets set up to do the math. You just entered the spacing between the feet and the indicator readings. The spreadsheet did the math and spit out the moves."

I learned to do that in '66 from one of the best alignment guys I ever knew. Westinghouse. Died young, about 55 YO, but taught me a hell of a lot. I became leadman on afternoon turn, based on his guidance.'93 or 4, US Steel sent me and one other guy to a laser alignment class. (BFD, all WE had to do was get a crane shaft welded back up so the crane could keep running.)

I once in the Westinghouse had to align a 14 unit drive train, because SOMEBODY including a female engineer convinced my big boss that a 200T rotor was being pushed by our drive line. I and my helper checked the entire system, did what movements WERE necessary, 1/2 thou or less. The big boss said he wanted my work inspected. MY boss said "If you doubt his work, I will quit right now."

In the end rhe turbogenerator, all 750 T of it was mislocated. When it came to electrical center, some may know what that is, IT pushed my gearbox, not the reverse My Philadelphia O/U gearbox,with herringbone gears could not DO that. That was all done with indicators and feeler gages. I think all the attraction with lasers has to do with boosting sales. I only used one, but I got closer with a 6" rule and feelers than the others did WITH the new system. What I needed was done in my head. They had to "graph" it.

As far as indicator droop, do you hang a laser over or under a coupling you also have droop. I had to calculate that. Does the new laser system automatically take that into the equation?

adamill hits it on the head when he says that lasers MAY give good result MAY give bad result. I liked my tactile alignments. I never had a bad alignment job and I have aligned 9 and 10 piece shovel sets, over 70' long. Laser and computer, nah!

Maybe you HAVE no people who CAN do this in the old way. If that is the case maybe you should hire an old man. If for no other reason than to make sure the laser does it right. (I ain't available, I like being retired.)

George

.
laser do no generally overhang at all thus do not sag above .001". if you saw laser side by side with reverse indicator setup you would see it at once the difference. laser sag you mount both laser brackets on a single piece of pipe zero and rotate and take readings. same as measuring indicator sag. since both mount to same piece of pipe any alignment reading other than zero when rotated shows sag error
.
i do though like to check with straight edge and feeler or caliper real quick after laser alignment to confirm i am in alignment. i have seen guys not re zero and take another reading. laser will lose zero setting from hammer taps just like indicators
.
calculating moves i have used excel too but graph paper though crude does show which way you got to move and how much. laptop you got to worry about getting damaged too easy.
.
heat rise or running a machine warmed up and then measuring often shows a coupling is out of alignment. i always align for running condition or temperatures. turbines, compressors, motors, etc that can get very hot or cold can easily change .005" or more from operating temperature differences. also i have seen pump alignment change after pipe is connected. often pipe strain is easily enough to change alignment .005"
.
it is been my experience that is why often a engineer wants things double checked by a different person. often there are different measurement readings from 2 different people. i do not get offended i just ask why there are 2 different readings. often for example pipe is connected hours later and then someone else measures coupling alignment hours after that and gets different readings. or somebody using indicators does not compensate for sag. with reverse indicating sheets i was taught to use, the indicator sag amount and temperature is listed on the sheets recording alignment readings. i usually just add to sheet data like if pipe is connected to pump during alignment readings

 

[gmatov]

TomB,

Indicators do not overhang at all either. if you drill a 36" coupling to mount to. Are they AS accurate? I would say so.

I never used "pipe" for an extension, were it needed. Always steel bar.

It has always been my experience that when someone doublethinks me, he knows not what he is saying. I am not the be-all and end-all, but I did know what I was doing. Do I think that a laser system is as good as a REAL Mechanic? I do NOT. They have a market because we have NOT people left TO do that work.IF we digitize it, it is no more than making a video game, you will be happy getting 7.25 an hour to play video games.

Hell, 90% OF programming IS a video game. Program, punch a button, lay back and catch pieces. Feed more stock in.

George