Brand New QT250MY Smooth Programming Issue

[Trevlaw]

So my shop recently just got a brand new QT250MY. We're a mazatrol shop, I'm mostly familiar with an older SQT with a T+ controller and my coworker runs an integrex with the matrix.

We were setting up our first real part on the new lathe, nothing overly complex. Tried to turn the OD with a few steps and corner radii. Tool Data is all described correctly, CNMG holder with 95*/80* cutting and edge angles with a .031" nose radius.

This picture is two processes copied from our big program. 2.75" stock that is roughed down to 1.6" in a different Unit, then we come back to rough the rest of it. The thing is in the second process in the picture, if the .031" is entered in the nose radius on the tool data page, the cutter is comp'd 2xTNR in X and actually travels further in Z than it is programmed. Enter 0 for the TNR and it fixes the X axis comp problem, but does not fix the Z axis overrun issue, might change the amount, but it still overruns. The real kicker is the amount that it overruns in Z can be adjusted higher by increasing the amount in the X axis finish allowance or lower by reducing the allowance in X. 0 X allowance would usually leave it overrunning .003" or whatever the Z allowance was.

Already emailed and called the Mazak applications engineer and he finally saw the same issue we were having once he got his simulation going. We eventually figured out that increasing the X axis cutting point would change the overrun amount as well, 1.605" was no change, 1.650" overrun went from .014" down to .00015", and 1.7" would get it to run correctly.

Mazak engineer figured this out shortly after us, and after confirming it worked for us basically said we could run it like that cutting a bit of air. Said he reported the issue to our local Mazak coordinator and that they would look into it...


We're still stumped as to what is truly going on, but I don't want to have to proof every coordinate in the virtual simulation before running parts to make sure our brand new machine is working right. With the cutting point set to 1.6 in X it would run just fine, no alarms, it just gouges the face of shoulder on the part and scraps it, so that's great...

Just curious if anyone has run into similar issues or not, this brand new lathe has a new issue every week it seems and is getting exhausting. Big ass burrs all over brand new Mazak $1200 part off holders, tight spots in brand new milling head bearings, stick holders with corner radii so large I have to hit my insert holders on the belt sander just to make them fit right, X axis way covers that bind up and bend themselves the first time it goes to centerline, and now the software just decides to run tools wherever it wants...

Our 20 year old SQT with the T+ runs programs similar to this one with zero issues.

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

 

[Scruffy887]

My QT250MSY is about a year old now. None of those issues but don't remember how I set up the tool file. No issues with any VDI holders or driven tools. But Mazak is like any other company and does have supply issues. I needed another radial driven tool and they did not have any. You cannot buy them by the part number on an existing tool. But the driven tool you can buy was almost same part number, none in stock. Guessing they have plenty on hand and are saving them for the machines they ship. Eppinger EXSYS Automation had what I needed and shipped right away. I ordered another 1.5 ID boring bar holder from Mazak in the Fall. Got it 3 months later. Did a work around so never unwrapped it. Maybe I should.
I have 2 other Fusion control lathes and the driven tools on the Smooth are different. Mazak supplied a bright red metal thingy that slips over the collet and around the housing. It is used to lock the collet flange for tightening(internal collet nut) because you cannot turn the driven spindles, no matter what turret position. They orient just like a VMC spindle. The Eppinger also came with a tightening aid, but it was useless. The spindle did not stop in that orientation. Not a big deal as I cut one that fit perfectly with my laser, made a wrench for the collet nut too.

 

[Philabuster]

We're still stumped as to what is truly going on, but I don't want to have to proof every coordinate in the virtual simulation before running parts to make sure our brand new machine is working right. With the cutting point set to 1.6 in X it would run just fine, no alarms, it just gouges the face of shoulder on the part and scraps it, so that's great...

Unfortunately, Mazak changed the way Mazatrol behaves in the later controls as you found out. My Integrex with the SmoothX control does the same thing. If you watch the tool path and zoom in, it will show up.

The only workaround is to increase the starting point on X to twice the roughing or finishing insert's nose radius above the finished diameter so the tool has a positive shoulder to stop Z travel. Otherwise, the machine thinks it has clearance and will go farther back in Z because the machine does not "see" any interference.

 

[Trevlaw]

Unfortunately, Mazak changed the way Mazatrol behaves in the later controls as you found out. My Integrex with the SmoothX control does the same thing. If you watch the tool path and zoom in, it will show up.

The only workaround is to increase the starting point on X to twice the roughing or finishing insert's nose radius above the finished diameter so the tool has a positive shoulder to stop Z travel. Otherwise, the machine thinks it has clearance and will go farther back in Z because the machine does not "see" any interference.

Huh, that seems odd. So if the machine thinks I'm turning to the end of the part it automatically goes half the nose radius past the finish Z point?

On our T+ if I was turning an OD and parting off later I would always add half or more of the nose radius to my finish Z point so my part off engages a flat face? So now it calculates that automatically and does it for me?

Guess we will just have to watch out for that then, especially if we convert any of our T+ programs to run on the new lathe.

Thanks for the answer, we were thinking it was an error with mazatrol and the application engineer we spoke with said he brought it to someone else's attention. Guess it's a feature, not a bug.

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

 

[Trevlaw]

My QT250MSY is about a year old now. None of those issues but don't remember how I set up the tool file. No issues with any VDI holders or driven tools. But Mazak is like any other company and does have supply issues. I needed another radial driven tool and they did not have any. You cannot buy them by the part number on an existing tool. But the driven tool you can buy was almost same part number, none in stock. Guessing they have plenty on hand and are saving them for the machines they ship. Eppinger EXSYS Automation had what I needed and shipped right away. I ordered another 1.5 ID boring bar holder from Mazak in the Fall. Got it 3 months later. Did a work around so never unwrapped it. Maybe I should.
I have 2 other Fusion control lathes and the driven tools on the Smooth are different. Mazak supplied a bright red metal thingy that slips over the collet and around the housing. It is used to lock the collet flange for tightening(internal collet nut) because you cannot turn the driven spindles, no matter what turret position. They orient just like a VMC spindle. The Eppinger also came with a tightening aid, but it was useless. The spindle did not stop in that orientation. Not a big deal as I cut one that fit perfectly with my laser, made a wrench for the collet nut too.

Interesting, I was reading through our manuals and I saw mention of the red tightening fixture, not sure if we got one or not. We got the little black ones from eppinger, and they do work as our milling heads spin freely only in the active turret position, though it does like to fall off every time you use it since the turret is angled down.

Pretty disappointed with the static holders that came with the lathe. Boring bar holders look like they were finished with 36 grit, and most of the stick holders need rework to get rid of the huge corner radius.

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

 

[Kingbob]

We are seriously eyeing this very machine as we are also an all mazak shop running matrix and smart. This is very unsettling

 

[Trevlaw]

We are seriously eyeing this very machine as we are also an all mazak shop running matrix and smart. This is very unsettling

Yeah, we've definitely had more hiccups than we hoped for. Another thing that surprised us is that you have to grease the ways and trucks for the tailstock manually. One wouldn't think it'd be that hard for them to incorporate the tailstock in with the rest of the lubrication system.

If we could do it over I think I would get the machine with no tool holders and just outfit it with some aftermarket holders like Eppinger or WTO.

The programming capabilities are definitely a big step up from our T+, as are the 6000rpm live tooling, looking forward to getting some of the preci-flex adapters and trying those out vs regular collets as well.

Our machine is from their Kentucky plant. My understanding is the machines from Japan are better, or you at least get a legit Mazak guy that comes and sets it up during installation. We got some guys from whatever dealership we had to go through for the Kentucky plant, and their expertise definitely left something to be desired. Guy took half an hour to dial in one boring bar holder, when he was finished he had me take a look. Shitty $50 Fowler indicator on a worn out noga base with tons of side to side slop. Just gave up, let them leave and decided we'd figure it out ourselves.

Not sure if I should post a separate thread, but while inspecting the machine I noticed a weird movement in the Y-axis on the negative side. I was indicating along an empty turret face to see if the face was parallel to Y. From Y zero to positive Y stop it was within a couple tenths, but from Y zero to negative Y stop it moved .0025". I have a video of it if anyone wants me to post it in this thread or another. I did the same process on our 20 year old T+ and got a similar reading, but only .001" vs .0025". So I have a feeling something's not right, but not sure if it's just inherent to the design of the Y axis on this machine

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

 

[Kingbob]

Thanks for all of that. I've been eyeballing and reading up on Okuma and this another coffin nail, maybe I'll get a competing quote. We trade on quick in our industry so I am terrified of having to learn a new control. I ha

 

[Scruffy887]

Yeah, we've definitely had more hiccups than we hoped for. Another thing that surprised us is that you have to grease the ways and trucks for the tailstock manually. One wouldn't think it'd be that hard for them to incorporate the tailstock in with the rest of the lubrication system.

I have a sub spindle, and that very thing is posted on the end of the enclosure. Not even sure it applies to my machine. Remove the enclosure to get to the fittings?

 

[BOB-OO]

Yeah, we've definitely had more hiccups than we hoped for. Another thing that surprised us is that you have to grease the ways and trucks for the tailstock manually. One wouldn't think it'd be that hard for them to incorporate the tailstock in with the rest of the lubrication system.

If we could do it over I think I would get the machine with no tool holders and just outfit it with some aftermarket holders like Eppinger or WTO.

The programming capabilities are definitely a big step up from our T+, as are the 6000rpm live tooling, looking forward to getting some of the preci-flex adapters and trying those out vs regular collets as well.

Our machine is from their Kentucky plant. My understanding is the machines from Japan are better, or you at least get a legit Mazak guy that comes and sets it up during installation. We got some guys from whatever dealership we had to go through for the Kentucky plant, and their expertise definitely left something to be desired. Guy took half an hour to dial in one boring bar holder, when he was finished he had me take a look. Shitty $50 Fowler indicator on a worn out noga base with tons of side to side slop. Just gave up, let them leave and decided we'd figure it out ourselves.

Not sure if I should post a separate thread, but while inspecting the machine I noticed a weird movement in the Y-axis on the negative side. I was indicating along an empty turret face to see if the face was parallel to Y. From Y zero to positive Y stop it was within a couple tenths, but from Y zero to negative Y stop it moved .0025". I have a video of it if anyone wants me to post it in this thread or another. I did the same process on our 20 year old T+ and got a similar reading, but only .001" vs .0025". So I have a feeling something's not right, but not sure if it's just inherent to the design of the Y axis on this machine

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

Would you mind posting that video? That is disturbing on a brand new machine. I would think a good setup guy should have been able to compensated for that in the control. My 22yr old Integrex allows for static Y comp., have never needed dynamic so not sure if that's in there 640MT.

We just completed a die tool that required +/-.0001" for concentricity & size, PIA process but the machine did it.

I would report your install experience and ask Mazak to send a technician who is capable of completing the setup. They have very good application guys in Kentucky and I bet they will get you squared away.

 

[Trevlaw]

Would you mind posting that video? That is disturbing on a brand new machine. I would think a good setup guy should have been able to compensated for that in the control. My 22yr old Integrex allows for static Y comp., have never needed dynamic so not sure if that's in there 640MT.

We just completed a die tool that required +/-.0001" for concentricity & size, PIA process but the machine did it.

I would report your install experience and ask Mazak to send a technician who is capable of completing the setup. They have very good application guys in Kentucky and I bet they will get you squared away.

Here is the link to my video. I took the y axis most of the way negative with it fairly far down in X. Then zeroed the indicator on the top edge of the turret and moved y positive most of the way. You can see it move the .0025" from Y- to Y0, then kind of stabilize. It did the same thing on multiple pockets and repeated again on the tailstock side edge of the pockets. Swept a few pockets in Z axis and it was within a couple tenths, so I don't think it's a low spot on the turret.

In my head I'm thinking the turret is rotating about it's center when moving in Y, so if I have .0025" at the pocket face, I'm curious how much the tip of my tool is moving ~6-8" from the face of the turret.

I've never done any of this before regarding inspecting a new machine or dialing one in, so I want to be sure I'm checking things correctly before having Mazak send out another person.

mazak - YouTube

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

 

[EndlessWaltz]

*Cracks knuckles

I will take a gander at this. I think what is going on is that it is trying to "clear" the tool nose radius as if it is running tool comp in G-code. I saw what you are seeing I am pretty positive in a Smart Control using only EIA code and the corresponding tool geometry page. I did not use Tool DATA at all and it would do that. I do things by habit now in a Smooth Control if I know I am working some tight stuff with a MDT/35 degree or getting close to a chuck to make sure I have clearance.

Hope this helps.

For all those looking at getting this machine or other new ones I hope Mazak does what HAAS is and teams up with LNS, Royal , or makes their own but get a mist collector hooked up is a real PITA. I do not see thermal growth where I have huge temp differance of more than .002 in a day, but it may go the 'other way' mid day--this is without using ThermalShield.

 

[Scruffy887]

I have a constant production job on one of my SQTs and spent some time working on mist control. Evaporating 5 gallons of water in a 12 hour day!
Take the time to aim all coolant nozzles at the part and not at the chuck. I went so far as to make my own nozzles and .25 copper tube adapters and pinched the ends to get only enough coolant to do the job. I even made sure coolant splash from the part was away from the chuck as much as possible. Also removed as much of the outer part of the jaws as they were like a 10" radial blade blower. Made a huge difference. There used to be a big cloud of mist when I opened the door. I even had 2 of those JET brand dust air filters sitting right on top of the lathe over the door. Not needed any more and evaporation is a small fraction of what it was.

 

[Trevlaw]

Well, haven't heard anything back from Mazak yet, my boss is still trying to bug them about it to see what they say regarding the programming issue we had

In the mean time, does anyone know how to get the chuck to spin with the door open? We didn't seem to get any interlock keys with the lathe, I can't even find where the interlocks are at. I think I found two small box looking things tucked up inside the sheet metal near the top of the door that say failsafe on them, but can't quite tell how a key would go in it.

I can jog the spindle by holding the round yellow button and spindle jog on the controller, but I have to hold both buttons. I'm trying to dial stuff in with a coax, but am quickly running out of hands.

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

 

[Scruffy887]

I have not pursued the interlock issue with my Smooth lathe, yet. I did do it on the mill. I took a triple layer of tin foil and pressed it onto the male part of the "key". Little bit of Voo Doo and I cut one out with my laser. It worked but needed a bit more Voo Doo. So now have a pair on big lanyards to drape over door opening so I know not to close the door. Lathe looks to be a bit more difficult. Maybe look at it Monday, but have not needed it yet. That key may need a longer handle.
I will say that if your tool descriptions are in order and chuck jaws described properly, the Barriers work fooking awesome. Test run on a new BAR LOOP part was going fine until parting off. Program stopped with warning. WTF! So opened doors and parting blade had just enough clearance, holder not quite enough. It would have made a nasty rubbing sound against the jaws.

 

[Trevlaw]

I have not pursued the interlock issue with my Smooth lathe, yet. I did do it on the mill. I took a triple layer of tin foil and pressed it onto the male part of the "key". Little bit of Voo Doo and I cut one out with my laser. It worked but needed a bit more Voo Doo. So now have a pair on big lanyards to drape over door opening so I know not to close the door. Lathe looks to be a bit more difficult. Maybe look at it Monday, but have not needed it yet. That key may need a longer handle.
I will say that if your tool descriptions are in order and chuck jaws described properly, the Barriers work fooking awesome. Test run on a new BAR LOOP part was going fine until parting off. Program stopped with warning. WTF! So opened doors and parting blade had just enough clearance, holder not quite enough. It would have made a nasty rubbing sound against the jaws.

Yeah, it almost seems like there may not be a key, or it's at least tucked away out of sight on each door. Wondering if the interlocks are magnetic or something.

We are supposed to have someone come out for some training eventually, we wanted to play with it and see what we didn't know first. I've yet to get the safety shield figured out, it's just a royal PITA right now since I'm most likely doing something wrong. So that's on my list of questions for training.

Going pretty well though, got a program worked up for some aluminum bronze parts we normally do on our horizontal 28 at a time for OP1 at 10-12 minutes per part. My bar pulled lathe program should get OP 1 down to 4-5 minutes per part. Just need a fancy double turning tool holder, only $1300 on MSC... A drop in the bucket

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

 

[Scruffy887]

Yeah, it almost seems like there may not be a key, or it's at least tucked away out of sight on each door. Wondering if the interlocks are magnetic or something.

We are supposed to have someone come out for some training eventually, we wanted to play with it and see what we didn't know first. I've yet to get the safety shield figured out, it's just a royal PITA right now since I'm most likely doing something wrong. So that's on my list of questions for training.

Going pretty well though, got a program worked up for some aluminum bronze parts we normally do on our horizontal 28 at a time for OP1 at 10-12 minutes per part. My bar pulled lathe program should get OP 1 down to 4-5 minutes per part. Just need a fancy double turning tool holder, only $1300 on MSC... A drop in the bucket

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

I turn that off when door is open and in SETUP mode. Cannot measure most tools with it on. Surprised your machine did not come with a front/back turning holder, or are you referring to a double turning holder for one spindle using Y axis??

 

[Trevlaw]

I turn that off when door is open and in SETUP mode. Cannot measure most tools with it on. Surprised your machine did not come with a front/back turning holder, or are you referring to a double turning holder for one spindle using Y axis??

Yeah I've just been turning it off, but it kicks back on every time I switch between handwheel, rapid, or home. Really annoying.

We don't have a sub spindle, so I'm trying to get a holder for two turning tools on one spindle in one turret spot. Found an Exsys number 7.076.059, but it's listed in there catalog as a QTN 250, where ours is a quick turn 250. Pretty sure it'll fit, and that the QTN is just a slightly older model, but going to call Monday to verify.

Does anyone here know about live tooling interchanging between different machine models. Our 1994 SQT 18MY live tools look like they would fit just fine in the newer lathe, which would be handy. Tempted to throw it in and see what happens, but I don't want to damage anything.

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

 

[Scruffy887]

Yeah I've just been turning it off, but it kicks back on every time I switch between handwheel, rapid, or home. Really annoying.

We don't have a sub spindle, so I'm trying to get a holder for two turning tools on one spindle in one turret spot. Found an Exsys number 7.076.059, but it's listed in there catalog as a QTN 250, where ours is a quick turn 250. Pretty sure it'll fit, and that the QTN is just a slightly older model, but going to call Monday to verify.

Does anyone here know about live tooling interchanging between different machine models. Our 1994 SQT 18MY live tools look like they would fit just fine in the newer lathe, which would be handy. Tempted to throw it in and see what happens, but I don't want to damage anything.

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

Are they both VDI40?
Also, you posted that your driven tools rotate freely when indexed into their working position. I tried that and mine do not. The Eppinger did rotate a bit when I installed it (above its working position for gravity help), but it oriented when rotated into working position. Now it is like the others, cannot rotate it. I am going to guess that this is related to ridged tapping with the live tools?

 

[Trevlaw]

Are they both VDI40?
Also, you posted that your driven tools rotate freely when indexed into their working position. I tried that and mine do not. The Eppinger did rotate a bit when I installed it (above its working position for gravity help), but it oriented when rotated into working position. Now it is like the others, cannot rotate it. I am going to guess that this is related to ridged tapping with the live tools?

Yeah, they are both VDI 40. My understanding is that Mazak VDI holders are a bit different than standard VDI 40 as they angle the teeth on the shank a bit instead of them being parallel to the centerline of the shank.

The holders for the new and old lathe look identical next to each other as far as mating surfaces. We've already been using some of our bar holders from the old lathe on the new one and those seem to fit fine.

That is interesting that yours don't spin freely in any position, that would be a pain. I remember seeing in our manual that live tools could only be inserted into the turret in the working position to prevent the tang from being misaligned, but that doesn't seem to be true for us. We can insert tools in any position, if the tang is oriented wrong the tool will not go in the turret all the way, but with a spin of the live tool spindle it will drop right in when the tang finds the correct spot.

I'm still not completely sure how the rigid tapping works. Seems like the backlash from the tang drive would cause issues, but the old Mori seiki NL2500 I ran rigid tapped fine, though it had a wider tang than the mazaks which I would think would help.

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk