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Bridgeport VMC 2216 vs Fadal VMC 3016 for used VMC

MotoX

Cast Iron
Joined
Nov 14, 2011
Location
Enid, Oklahoma
I would like to hear thoughts and opinions on these two machines. I will be going to look at them on Friday. I run Fanuc at the day job so I'm very familiar with them, however I have never seen a Fanuc controlled machine with yaskawa drives/servos without it being a retrofit. Is this a common thing? seems weird to me as Fanuc makes their own servos and drives. Could this marriage cause weird integration problems?

I have never used a Fadal but i like the idea that they are easy to repair.

Both are for sale semi locally, the Bridgeport being 2hr away and the Fadal 4.5 hrs away.

Link to the Bridgeport

BRIDGEPORT | VMC-2216 | CAT40 | VERTICAL MACHINING CENTER

Link to the Fadal

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Obvious differences
CNC 88HS vs Fanuc 21im
30" vs 22" in x travel
10k vs 8k rpm


Fadal has "Cool Power" which i assume is spindle and/or ballscrew cooling.

Fadal looks to have low hours, the bp shows quite a few on the hour meter. I know the hours can be changed on the fanuc though. Not sure if the Fadal has an hour meter?

BP has "high speed machining", which i assume is higher feedrates and look ahead.

I'm looking for a general purpose VMC, but first off i will be running a bunch of AL plates.

Any downsides to either machine that I haven't covered?

What am i to expect from the 88HS control? Can it surface/cut 3d arcs?

Throw your opinions out there, I want to hear the good and the bad.

Thanks
 

D Nelson

Stainless
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Location
Missouri Ida
Fadal all the way put a calmotion box on it. It will surface no problem easy to fix and cheaper parts
Don


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

pcasanova

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Location
vacaville ca
just check the coolpower circuit. they have a tendency to leak on the ballscrews and cause problems. And like I did on mine was bypass the screws and only chill the spindle.
 

MotoX

Cast Iron
Joined
Nov 14, 2011
Location
Enid, Oklahoma
just check the coolpower circuit. they have a tendency to leak on the ballscrews and cause problems. And like I did on mine was bypass the screws and only chill the spindle.

I imagine they have a rotary union that tends to leak? Does the cooling system just use a type of oil?
 

D Nelson

Stainless
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Location
Missouri Ida
It uses a antifrreze type. A lot of people swap it to a light oil so when the seals leak it lubes the thrust bearings instead of rusting them out
Don


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

barbter

Diamond
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Location
On Tour...
The Bridgeport looks like what was sold in the UK as a VMC600. Linear rail machine all around, and very lightweight from my experience.
The Fadal is definitely box way Z, and depending on models, may also be box in X+Y or linear rail, but if the turcite is good in the Z (inspect visual and with DTI for movement/backlash etc), i'd be preferring the Fadal.
There's a few guys here that know Fadals better than their wife - so help is always good!
 

Bobw

Diamond
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Location
Hatch, NM Chile capital of the WORLD
A box Z and linear XY would be a 3016A. And there would be badging.

The liquid cooled ball screws. About the only "high end" thing Fadal tried, and
it was a disaster. Dumps right into the thrust bearings if it leaks. And its the
same size screws that are on higher end machines. But the rapids are slower, the
accelerations are slower. Actually using light oil in the chiller system isn't
a bad idea. Continuously lubricate your thrust bearings.

I don't know F* All about a Bridgeport VMC. But I think they were made by Hardinge.
And neither Bridgeport or Hardinge knew F* All about building a VMC.

On a 20+ year old machine, it all boils down to parts and support. Its really not which
machine has 100 more ipm rapids. Its which one can I keep running. You're buying a 20
year old machine. Money is not flowing out your ass.

With a Bridgeport VMC.. I don't know who you would call when you have a problem. With
a Fadal, 2 pretty good places and a there are a few other that will give you FREE tech
support.

I'll give you a challenge, Pick a problem.. Any problem... For each machine. Post HERE
at 2am on a Sunday morning about your "Fictional Problem". See how may answers you get
for each machine, and how quick. Make sure you actually have details. "My Bridgeport doesn't work" will
get ZERO responses. "My Acroloc doesn't run" will at least get a response of "Why the hell
did you buy an Acroloc?". or "How big of a boat do you have that you needed an anchor that big?".

If its a brand new machine. Not that big of a deal, but when its 20+ years old. Parts and
support is a BIG DEAL!!!!
 

wheelieking71

Diamond
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Location
Gilbert, AZ
I'll give you a challenge, Pick a problem.. Any problem... For each machine. Post HERE
at 2am on a Sunday morning about your "Fictional Problem".
See how may answers you get
for each machine, and how quick. Make sure you actually have details. "My Bridgeport doesn't work" will
get ZERO responses. "My Acroloc doesn't run" will at least get a response of "Why the hell
did you buy an Acroloc?". or "How big of a boat do you have that you needed an anchor that big?".

If its a brand new machine. Not that big of a deal, but when its 20+ years old. Parts and
support is a BIG DEAL!!!!

Bob's point is valid! So, don't really do what he suggests, LOL :cheers:
 

MotoX

Cast Iron
Joined
Nov 14, 2011
Location
Enid, Oklahoma
If it's a box way machine jog the table to the limit of travel. If it's a 4020 the end of the Turcite is exposed. If it's worn (there'll be a step you can feel) then you may need to replace Turcite at some point soon. If the Turcite has come unglued then you will need to replace the Turcite on the x-axis. If the x-axis Turcite is worn then the Y and Z axis Turcite probably needs replacing.

if it's a linear rail machine check the condition of the guides. If the rails/trucks are trashed it's an easy fix, and not too expensive. If it had bad linear rails, i'd be unconcerned if the price was right.

Check the lube pump is working. I would budget in replacing all the metering valves.

The part no on the cards will tell you the version of the control. If it's a -2 control, then figure upgrading to at least a -4 control. I have 4020 with a -4 control, it's very adequate, a -5 is better.

Check if it's a grease pack or air'oil spindle. The air/oil spindle has multiple lines coming into the spindle housing underneath the casting (can't remember how many) Don't be fooled if there's a Bijur air /oil pump above the lube pump. Quite a few air/oil spindles were swapped for grease packed spindles and the pump left on the machine. like mine.

The air/oil spindle is the better spindle, you can run 10k for ever, the 10k grease pack spindle shouldn't be run at 10k for more than the time recomended by Fadal (check the manual). I run my grease pack spindle at 8k all day long, and if I forget to turn the chiller pump on it can get quite toasty (the part of the control that turns the spindle chiller on doesn't work on my mc)

Check spindle runout. Check spindle taper condition. If you have a drawbar tension gage it should be 1650-2000#. Assume that you'll need to change the bellevilles and floater any way. Check the toolholders, if a few have what appears to be rust on the holder then it's fretting, which means the taper isn't in the best condition.

Regardless of the year check if it's a DC or AC machine. I have a DC machine, I wish it was an AC machine for faster cutting feedrates and rapids.

Check backlash. Put an indicator on the table and measure backlash in x y and z. Put the indicator on the end of the ball screw and check backlash. This way you can tell if the backlash is leadscrew,thrust bearings, or both. Thrust bearings are cheap and relitevily easy to change.

Typing BL will bring up backlash values, anything above 20 would have me concerned. the backlash values on mine are larger than I would like. The diameters it cuts are very clean, no steps at any of the quadrant corners. But there not very round. If I want round (enough for a bearing) the part goes on my Makino

Push the table side to side to check the x-axis gibs free play, push and pull the table at the end to determine y-axis gib play. Put the indicator in the appropriate places to check play.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the hours if the machines appear to be in good condition. depending on the age, it may not have the original spindle/leadscrews etc.

get the ownere to machine some parts, intepolate a diameter check for steps in the quadrants would indicate the backlash isn't correct., cut some faces in x and y, cut a face at 45deg. If it's stair stepped you may have issues (mine was a bad resolver) machine a face with a face mill with a large stepover compared to the diameter, maybe 1.5" stepover for a 2" dia face mill. Check that there's no step between passes. a step will indicate a tram issue, maybe worn Z axis Turcite.

I was hoping that you would see this post Bobw, as i know you are well experienced with the Fadals.

I totally agree on the BP VMC, it was in the price range and within driving distance.

Any tips or links to threads on how to inspect the turcite? I've never dealt with a machine that has it.

Just pull the covers back and have a look?

Bolt something to the table/spindle and have a wiggle with an indicator?

Can you tell me any other key things to look out for?



Edit: found the post above in another thread. Do you have anything to add?
 
Last edited:

triumph406

Titanium
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Location
ca
Can't tell whether the fadal has an extended z axis, if it does it gives you another 8" in Z and helps with a 4th or 5th axis rotary for clearance. Sellor would know.

Ad says it was placed 16 weeks ago, that's a long time for a machine in good condition and at the right price to be for sale. I would negotiate the price, at auction that would be a $3-5k machine.

My understanding from talking to some of the Fadal people that the 3016 box way was the best machine they ever made, at least in their opinion
 

triumph406

Titanium
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Location
ca
I was hoping that you would see this post Bobw, as i know you are well experienced with the Fadals.

I totally agree on the BP VMC, it was in the price range and within driving distance.

Any tips or links to threads on how to inspect the turcite? I've never dealt with a machine that has it.

Just pull the covers back and have a look?

Bolt something to the table/spindle and have a wiggle with an indicator?

Can you tell me any other key things to look out for?

One of the locals puts a level on the table, if the x axis turcite is bad sometimes he can tell from the bubble moving when jogging the table from one extreme to another.

With the way covers off jog the table to the end of the X travel, if it's like my 4020 the turcite goes past the end of the box ways, on mine you can feel a few ridges in the turcite, and a ridge along it's length where the turcite is wider than the way. Very caerfully check that the turcite is still adhered to the table, if it isn't then you've got a machine to walk away from.

Put an indicator on the table, push/pull the table with some force in X and Y. Then put the indicator on the end of the leadscrew push and pull again. The difference between those 2 readings is thrust bearing end play. Thrust bearings are cheap and easy to fix, as are couplings. Leadscrews aren't expensive, realitevly speaking.

I know somebody who's the BobW of South Central LA. Everytime the 4020 does something wierd I can't quickly fix I'll call him, every problem i've had he says "what do you expect it's a Fadal, and btw this is how you fix it!"

Don't know about Oklahoma, but Fanuc is 45 mins drive form here, so getting a Fanuc serviced is no problem, plus there's a few very good independant Fanuc service guys around here. I've got a Makino with a Fanuc control and have never been down more than 1-2 days with a control failure. So in your area I'd be inclined to check what the coverage is like for Fanuc.

Around here old Yasnac = boat anchor.
 

triumph406

Titanium
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Location
ca
I have a couple machines at work that have yaskawa drives and servos, but their own controls(hurco, milltronics). They are prety reliable. But I have not seen a Fanuc with yasakwa.

I think I've seen Mori seiki SL's with Fanuc controls and Yaskawa drives.

Around here there used to be a lot of Mexican buyers who bought machines at auction and took them to Mexico, they always bought machines with Fanuc controls and avoided Yasnac controls like the plague.

I have an old Mori SL3 with a very old Yasnac control that i inherited in a deal gone bad. To get the local independant Yasnac guy to come out was going to take a red carpet, champagne and a reach around. So I've avoided anything Yasnac ever since. Not that I buy machines anymore
 

barbter

Diamond
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Location
On Tour...
I have a couple machines at work that have yaskawa drives and servos, but their own controls(hurco, milltronics). They are prety reliable. But I have not seen a Fanuc with yasakwa.

Mid 90s Hitachis had yaskawas.
By memory....Fanuc control....but whatever it had, had their seikos on top.

The early 90s Bridgeports are excellent.
They are box way all axes and 30tools.
Then they decided to rebadge and there was the whole Hardinge "thing".
Some machines were Yangs....later machines (2005 era) were excellent - they are Quasers.
 

barbter

Diamond
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Location
On Tour...
A box Z and linear XY would be a 3016A. And there would be badging.

The liquid cooled ball screws. About the only "high end" thing Fadal tried, and
it was a disaster. Dumps right into the thrust bearings if it leaks. And its the
same size screws that are on higher end machines. But the rapids are slower, the
accelerations are slower.
By memory....from a sales guy who wanted to sell me one back in the day....
There were 3x models.
Linear rails allround (was this machine a plate steel welded machine - ie non cast iron (same as Cincinati did for a range in the UK???))
Box Z and linear XY
Box Z all round (this one).
And it was this one which was the most expensive and well specced, as it was aimed at the mold boys.
Hence acc/dec reduced, because the mass on the table would (usually) be higher for this type of work?

I always thought the cooled screws were a good idea, but have no experience.
 

Bobw

Diamond
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Location
Hatch, NM Chile capital of the WORLD
Linear rails allround (was this machine a plate steel welded machine -

You're thinking of the VMC15s. Those are weldments.

The 3016L for some reason only weighs about 800 lbs more than the VMC15XT,
Even though its iron. And almost a ton less than the box 3016. It also
got the 7500rpm single speed (though wye-delta shift) spindle.

I've always been curious how the 3016L performs, because the vmc15XT isn't exactly a
superstar of rigidity. I wasn't thinking and needed to use a 3" facemill
in my VMC15.. I just pumped in the #s that I run on my 4020s.. THAT
was a mistake.
 








 
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