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Brother Speedio tool fretting

Bigtoy302

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Location
Eugene, OR
So running some bigger parts lately and am now getting some weird fretting on my tool holders. It's only one little spot on the side and the full face. (dual contact)

Cut was aggressive but still not maxing the Brother out. Nikken SK16 dual contact with a 3/8" x 1" long Diamondback Rougher. .875" Deep, .150" stepover, 300IPM, 16k RPM. I even cut the stepover back to .100" with a different holder and still the same fretting. I had a few more tool holders fret the same but not as bad that weren't pushed as hard on the same part.

Only thing I can think of is the holder is ground wrong making too much face contact and not enough taper. Nikken is NOT licensed by Big Kaiser for Big plus.

Side note. Why is all the licensed Big plus stuff such long gauge length? Sidelocks with 2.5" GL or 2" for a facemill. That's a lot on a 30 taper. Rego stuff is 70mm and $$$$
 

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DavidScott

Titanium
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Washington
My first thought is you don't have enough taper preload so at speed it is all face contact. I would measure it to find out. Measure where the face of a toolholder is held in the spindle by hand without a pullstud, then held with the drawbar with a pullstud. When I did this on my new machine I got .0003"-.0005", with the Maritool holders at .0003". When I measured a taper only contact holder I got .0011". I tried to find out what the correct amount is but that is a big secret that no one will tell. I contacted BigDaishowa and all I got was a sales pitch. When I pushed they then said to only buy licensed products and trust it is good since the amount was a big secret, which is pretty much what all the other companies I contacted said. Frank at Maritool was a little more helpful but said it depends on the spindle so there is no universal number, which I agree with. It really depends on how elastic the spindle taper is and how fast it will spin so it really is up to the spindle manufacturer. By the way I think .0003" is really light, I would think closer to .0007"-.0008" static wouldn't be too much, but that is just my gut hunch.

Try a real rougher, those Diamondbacks are rougher/finishers and don't compare with corncob roughers. I would suggest Garr first then MA Ford second for the least amount of cutting force. I still have some brand new Diamondbacks stored from when I saw the light 17 years ago. Once I realized how big the difference was I quit using them.

The one last thought that we aren't supposed to ask, drawbar tension? This is where a gage would be nice.

If the problem is with your spindle taper and you are no longer getting any taper preload you could always lap the face in place. It wouldn't be hard and it would be pretty safe since the metal will come off slowly with finer abrasives.
 

Bigtoy302

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Location
Eugene, OR
A Diamondback is absolutely not a rougher/finisher. Have you actually ran one recently? You cannot finish with them.

It's not the endmill, It's the holder. A freer cutting rougher would help but it's still the holder. I know roughers are trying to rip the tool out but these are not massive cuts.

What Garr? The ARC series? I have been told to try the Fraisa AX-FPS too. I like the Destiny stuff because they work good, big selection, easy to order and I can get it next day for a few dollars more. I'm running extended length neck downs on this job too (roughers and finishers). Getting all the right sizes I want in other brands may not be as easy.

I think Frank is wrong about spindles varying. They absolutely should not since MTB's have to be Licensed by Kaiser to make a Big Plus spindle so therefore they have the specs and gauges. He just saying that because he is too cheap to license. I have bought a bunch of DC stuff from him when I upgraded my spindle two years ago and he sent be a bunch of garbage. (bad threads, faces hard turned with chatter, not ground face ground like they should be, collets would not fit nuts etc.) He did refund me. I still buy stuff from him just not DC holders lol.

It's not drawbar force, spindle is only two years old. If it was weak there would be NO face contact due to how the dual contact work. (Taper pulls in first deforms some then locks against the face).

I'm pretty sure it's a holder issue. I'm just going to bite the bullet and go Kaiser and Rego even know the gauges lengths are longer than I'm running. I really wish one of them made short sidelocks. Kasier are 2.5" GL.
 

gkoenig

Titanium
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Location
Portland, OR
I'm pretty sure it's a holder issue. I'm just going to bite the bullet and go Kaiser and Rego even know the gauges lengths are longer than I'm running. I really wish one of them made short sidelocks. Kasier are 2.5" GL.

You'll be fine.

A lot of the demand in the Speedio world for super stubby side-lock tools was born out of BrotherFrank demonstrating these machines taking absolutely insane roughing cuts. Now don't get me wrong; I absolutely love murdering aluminum as viciously as anyone, but real-world? Ain't nobody is running 400ipm, 35% side engagement, 1.5" deep.

What BrotherFrank has done is found and demonstrated the machine's redline capabilities which is hugely valuable. I know that if I program that cut at 250ipm, 20% engage, and 1.25" deep, I am well below the machine's capabilities and will have great success day in and day out.

That also means I won't be able to tell much of a difference between a 1.2" gauge length side lock holder and a 2.2" gauge side lock holder. This is especially true on Big+ (which most of BrotherFrank's work predates, even the insane Frasia roughing he demonstrated a few weeks ago was on an S300 with a standard spindle and no TSC).

So real-world productivity? Run the highest quality holders you can afford, don't worry too much about gauge length with everyday productivity parameters.
 

DavidScott

Titanium
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Washington
I know Diamondbacks don't finish worth a shit but they finish far better than they rough, in my experience. Way too much cutting force, both radial and axial. I don't remember the series but either Mfgr only makes one series of corncobs for aluminum.

Yeah, I know how dual contact holders interface with the spindle. I also understand that some spindles are beefier than others, with differing amounts of drawbar force, which will impact how much preload is right to get the best fit. Due to your problem, I think knowing how much preload that toolholder has in your spindle would be worth knowing.

Gage length makes a big difference in rigidity, I have seen this proven out many times in the 25 years that I have been running BT30 mills.
 

crossthread82

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Location
Maryland
I think Frank is wrong about spindles varying. They absolutely should not since MTB's have to be Licensed by Kaiser to make a Big Plus spindle so therefore they have the specs and gauges.
Frank is right, the reason the number isn't plastered all over the internet is because there is no set number. The gap between faces is determined by a lot of factors not just what Big says. Higher speed spindles with thinner walled drawtubes have a different allowance then a high torque heavy spindle. When you get licensed by Big you get access to all of those tolerance bands and the master gauges so you know what it's supposed to be for your spindle application (This is mostly important for spindle builders and regrind companies). The holders are all ground to the same standard. The spindles themselves are not.

For fretting I'd check drawbar force if you haven't had issues before.
 

Bigtoy302

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Location
Eugene, OR
Frank is right, the reason the number isn't plastered all over the internet is because there is no set number. The gap between faces is determined by a lot of factors not just what Big says. Higher speed spindles with thinner walled drawtubes have a different allowance then a high torque heavy spindle. When you get licensed by Big you get access to all of those tolerance bands and the master gauges so you know what it's supposed to be for your spindle application (This is mostly important for spindle builders and regrind companies). The holders are all ground to the same standard. The spindles themselves are not.

For fretting I'd check drawbar force if you haven't had issues before.
So if the spindles are all different then how do they get the fit perfect when if all the holders are the same? The Big gauge for the spindle would be useless at that point wouldn't it?

I'm getting more face fretting than anything so that would mean the tool is ground wrong, which I'm pretty sure of. I have heard of someone else with the same holder but opposite problem. Taper contact and not face contact.

If draw bar force was tool low it would not make face contact at all. I could check it but that's kinda useless because Brother will not tell you how much it's supposed to be anyway.

I'm going to order some Big stuff next week and try the same cuts again and see.
 

crossthread82

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Location
Maryland
So if the spindles are all different then how do they get the fit perfect when if all the holders are the same? The Big gauge for the spindle would be useless at that point wouldn't it?
It's because the elastic deformation of each spindle is different. The gauge Big supplies is a reference and you measure the taper-face vs the reference based on the charts they supply. One spindle may need to measure 0.001 proud of gauge face another might be 0.0005 based on drawbar load, taper swell, etc. I will admit that the tolerancing is rather confusing and since Big gatekeeps the info to keep their licensing program intact it makes it even more mystifying.

When loaded they should all be the same, which is why the holders are all the same. But at rest with no tool in the spindle the taper to gauge face measurement will vary between spindles.

It vary well could be an issue with the holders. My Big+ machine is a cat40 and I've always used regofix dual contact holders so I don't have experience with unlicensed holders. I do remember reading an article from a while back showing that many unlicensed holders were in fact outside of the tolerance range but that was also probably 10 years ago so I'm not sure if things have changed.
 
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Bigtoy302

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Location
Eugene, OR
It's because the elastic deformation of each spindle is different. The gauge Big supplies is a reference and you measure the taper-face vs the reference based on the charts they supply. One spindle may need to measure 0.001 proud of gauge face another might be 0.0005 based on drawbar load, taper swell, etc. I will admit that the tolerancing is rather confusing and since Big gatekeeps the info to keep their licensing program intact it makes it even more mystifying.

When loaded they should all be the same, which is why the holders are all the same. But at rest with no tool in the spindle the taper to gauge face measurement will vary between spindles.

It vary well could be an issue with the holders. My Big+ machine is a cat40 and I've always used regofix dual contact holders so I don't have experience with unlicensed holders. I do remember reading an article from a while back showing that many unlicensed holders were in fact outside of the tolerance range but that was also probably 10 years ago so I'm not sure if things have changed.
That makes sense.

Big does have a paper where they tested 25 non licensed holders. 4 were in spec, then 40% had flange contact only and the other 44% had taper contact only.
 

crossthread82

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Location
Maryland
Big does have a paper where they tested 25 non licensed holders. 4 were in spec, then 40% had flange contact only and the other 44% had taper contact only.
I think I remember seeing that. They conveniently didn't list brands for anything. Wouldn't want to give people the resources to buy good quality unlicensed holders for half the price lol.
 

ManualEd

Stainless
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Location
Kelowna, Canada
Does your control tell you how many tool changes it’s done?

The way speedios are, you might have 5 times the tool changes in half the hours of a typical machine.
Check drawbar force before chasing your tail on 10 different holders. Probably cheaper than buying a single Big Kaiser or Regofix holder.
 

Milland

Diamond
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Location
Hillsboro, New Hampshire
If more than one toolholder is showing fretting on the taper, it would be worth a careful inspection of the spindle taper to see if a chip has gotten stuck to the internal taper. That would screw your face mate and give a chance for taper wear at the same time.

Checking the inside taper by bluing a new, quality non-face mate holder might be worthwhile too.
 

Bigtoy302

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Location
Eugene, OR
You didn’t loose your torque wrench and over tighten the pull studs like you did when you ruined your first spindle did you?
No lol. These are torqued to 15ftlbs. Over torqued leaves distinct fretting. This is different.

Does your control tell you how many tool changes it’s done?

The way speedios are, you might have 5 times the tool changes in half the hours of a typical machine.
Check drawbar force before chasing your tail on 10 different holders. Probably cheaper than buying a single Big Kaiser or Regofix holder.
Yes. I'm almost 400k, but this spindle was only put in two years ago and I didn't check how many it had when I swapped. I'm guessing it probably has 250-300k on it which is nothing for a Brother. They don't use Bellville's so they don't really lose force. There's Speedios at a knife manufacturer up north with over a million changes and still going strong. Again if this was a drawbar issue it wouldn't be making face contact. Checking doesn't do much good because Brother will not tell you what it's supposed to be. I 100% think this is a holder issue. Nikken is not licensed.

If more than one toolholder is showing fretting on the taper, it would be worth a careful inspection of the spindle taper to see if a chip has gotten stuck to the internal taper. That would screw your face mate and give a chance for taper wear at the same time.

Checking the inside taper by bluing a new, quality non-face mate holder might be worthwhile too.
I have checked many times. With the Brother face wash I have never got a chip up there.

Only one had a small fret on the taper but all roughing tools had face fretting.
 

mottrhed

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Location
nh
Check drawbar force, the spindles age does not prove a thing. Since you are not contacting the face well, and also fretting the taper itself, that points to not retaining the holder tight enough, or overloading in your process.

Next check taper angle/size, with air gauging.

Next check that the dual contact relationship is in spec, with big + gauging.

Next check force applied elasticity spec, again with big plus gauging.

This will only cost about 60k to tool up for lol. But this is the right way to prove its not a spindle issue. You can also test the tool holder with air gauging to prove the taper is right and its relationship to the face is in spec, most likely the mfg of the holder did that in their qc process.

Almost certainly a tool retention issue, and at minimum you should measure that as its dangerous when you throw a tool..
Multiple holders, same result, why blame the holders?
 

Bigtoy302

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Location
Eugene, OR
Almost certainly a tool retention issue, and at minimum you should measure that as its dangerous when you throw a tool..
Multiple holders, same result, why blame the holders?
Because it's easier?
BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT LICENSED. I have horrible luck with tool holders. 3 times I've bought holders and had to send them back for numerous issues with them, One was Mari.. I'm now done with it. I will only put licensed DC holders in my mill from now on.

Could it be the spindle? most likely not. I have never heard of Brother having a bad spindle that was new or losing retention. They don't use bellvilles so they don't wear out like normal spindle. And again testing won't be much help because Brother will NOT tell you what it's supposed to be.

I'm ordering some Big stuff this week and will report back. The problem is the spindle is now permanently fretted so I might just have to replace it too.
 

mottrhed

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Location
nh
You were given good advice. The licensed holders will suffer the same symptoms, but it’s your money to waste.

I hope for your sake I’m wrong.
 

Bigtoy302

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Location
Eugene, OR
You were given good advice. The licensed holders will suffer the same symptoms, but it’s your money to waste.

I hope for your sake I’m wrong.
How so? If the non licensed holders are not ground to spec they can do what they're doing. These are making more face contact than taper. That's would mean it's a holder issue. If it was drawbar it would not have enough strength to pull the face all the way up. leaving a gap. That's not what's happening here. I could be totally wrong but that makes sense in my head. I have spoke with Brother(Yamazen) about this and that's what they think also.
 

Milland

Diamond
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Location
Hillsboro, New Hampshire
Good luck with whatever you wind up doing, please let us know if the BIG holders and new spindle does clear up the fretting.

It might help to take a stud dynomometer reading with the replacement spindle, then track that over time. It would make a good diagnostic value if nothing else.
 








 
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