Brother Speedio xd1 real differences?

[Turbulent-BTUs]

What are the real-world differences between the xd1s and the previous gens?

Specifically S700xd1 and R650xd1.

Our sales guy seems to be trying to move old models, but it's hard to imagine Brother would do a full name change if the differences were trivial.

For example, the R650 has new sheet metal. Seems like there are more changes than 0.1sec speed increase and a new controller. And no useless stickers

• Better chip evacuation?
• Fewer leaking/mist issues?
• Improved coolant delivery?

And do the apps really do anything useful?

 

[kazlx]

I'm sure @BROTHERFRANK can give you a rundown. Just depends on if you want latest and greatest or a better deal on the previous model. Either way, you won't be disappointed.

 

[BROTHERFRANK]

Do you have Brother machines now? That could make a difference in the decision too as far as compatibility etc... S700Xd1 will have 28 Tools, Big Plus standard and updated casting (higher rigidity claimed). R650Xd1 and R450Xd1 have very different castings than X2. chips and coolant now exit out of a port right below the machining area like the M series machines or previous TC-32B machines. This requires the flume system or a conveyor to go up under the machine to bring the chips out the back. I think this is a neutral change as some people will be fine with the X1/X2 design and some will prefer the new design. Tough if you have a shop laid out for the X2 and now you have to change your conveyor layout... Rotary tables are not compatible between Xd1 machines and previous models due to the D00 control having a new servo series with higher resolution. The apps are nice and there are nice features on the D00 control. That being said the X2 machines will not disappoint and there are excellent clearance opportunities now on stock machines.

 

[gkoenig]

What are the real-world differences between the xd1s and the previous gens?

Specifically S700xd1 and R650xd1.

Our sales guy seems to be trying to move old models, but it's hard to imagine Brother would do a full name change if the differences were trivial.

So, I could write a huge wall of text about the changes, but my bullet points would be:

- Xd1 machines also have a lot of hardware changes - 28 tools, Big+ standard across the lineup, 1000psi TSC, 10% cycle time improvements across the board compared to the C-00 (which was already pretty damn fast).

- The D-00 control has a lot of little quality-of-life improvements that people in job shops and prototype shops are going to like, but not so relevant in production shops... for now.

- Most of the D-00's improvements are foundational architecture changes that will flower over the next few years, the same way that the C-00 improved tremendously over it's 10+ year run. Apps aren't groundbreaking now, but they will be as Brother works with 3rd parties to make some really cool stuff. OPC-UA is a huge deal for automation and integration into other equipment goes.

My general advice is: if you are looking at a Speedio for a particular job, and the C-00 generation machines work for you? Save yourself a boatload of money and buy one now, you're going to be as happy as Speedio owners always have been and the C-00 machines are going to crush it. If you are a machine nerd (like me) looking for maximum application flexibility and need the machine to evolve along with you (prototype, garage guys, etc), get the D-00 control.

 

[Mtndew]

chips and coolant now exit out of a port right below the machining area

That's huge.
We have the R450X1 pallet machine and chip management is a p.i.t.a.

 

[TeachMePlease]

That's huge.
We have the R450X1 pallet machine and chip management is a p.i.t.a.

Uh, Dew... That's not where the chips are supposed to go.

 

[Turbulent-BTUs]

Do you have Brother machines now? That could make a difference in the decision too as far as compatibility etc... S700Xd1 will have 28 Tools, Big Plus standard and updated casting (higher rigidity claimed). R650Xd1 and R450Xd1 have very different castings than X2. chips and coolant now exit out of a port right below the machining area like the M series machines or previous TC-32B machines. This requires the flume system or a conveyor to go up under the machine to bring the chips out the back. I think this is a neutral change as some people will be fine with the X1/X2 design and some will prefer the new design. Tough if you have a shop laid out for the X2 and now you have to change your conveyor layout... Rotary tables are not compatible between Xd1 machines and previous models due to the D00 control having a new servo series with higher resolution. The apps are nice and there are nice features on the D00 control. That being said the X2 machines will not disappoint and there are excellent clearance opportunities now on stock machines.

So, I could write a huge wall of text about the changes, but my bullet points would be:

- Xd1 machines also have a lot of hardware changes - 28 tools, Big+ standard across the lineup, 1000psi TSC, 10% cycle time improvements across the board compared to the C-00 (which was already pretty damn fast).

- The D-00 control has a lot of little quality-of-life improvements that people in job shops and prototype shops are going to like, but not so relevant in production shops... for now.

- Most of the D-00's improvements are foundational architecture changes that will flower over the next few years, the same way that the C-00 improved tremendously over it's 10+ year run. Apps aren't groundbreaking now, but they will be as Brother works with 3rd parties to make some really cool stuff. OPC-UA is a huge deal for automation and integration into other equipment goes.

My general advice is: if you are looking at a Speedio for a particular job, and the C-00 generation machines work for you? Save yourself a boatload of money and buy one now, you're going to be as happy as Speedio owners always have been and the C-00 machines are going to crush it. If you are a machine nerd (like me) looking for maximum application flexibility and need the machine to evolve along with you (prototype, garage guys, etc), get the D-00 control.

Amazingly helpful info!!

Yes, we have three S700x2 machines, an X1 machine. BTT, 27k, 21 tools, high pressure, most of the bells/whistles. No R-series yet, but def like the double pallet. And we do have problems with chip evac on S700s since we are a production shop, and vibration that we can't tame. We migrated to Speedios from DMG Horizontals, and really like the future w/ R-series machines and automation. We have a lot of empty floor space looking to fill

 

[DavidScott]

That's huge.
We have the R450X1 pallet machine and chip management is a p.i.t.a.

The only chip management problem I have with my R650 is on the X axis way covers, they just pile up no matter what.

 

[gkoenig]

And we do have problems with chip evac on S700s since we are a production shop, and vibration that we can't tame.

Can you expand on this a little? We have lots of folks with S series machines in-production, most of them pounding away on aluminum and producing a lot of chips, but evac has never been an issue. Now, chips piling up in the back and aching over to spend the money on a *good* conveyor is common, but chip buildup in the enclosure is not an issue I've seen.

What is going on with your environment/application? I'm genuinely curious because I like to head such problems off at the pass, or at least know about them.

 

[Turbulent-BTUs]

Can you expand on this a little? We have lots of folks with S series machines in-production, most of them pounding away on aluminum and producing a lot of chips, but evac has never been an issue. Now, chips piling up in the back and aching over to spend the money on a *good* conveyor is common, but chip buildup in the enclosure is not an issue I've seen.

What is going on with your environment/application? I'm genuinely curious because I like to head such problems off at the pass, or at least know about them.

For sure. Do you rep brother/yamazen? Or just a speedio fan? Would love to see a tour of your shop

The machine that has chip issues does just copper and brass. Aluminum and plastics on S-series are solid. Copper, esp with coolant that can get sticky, and will result in buildup in the lazy rivers. The new R-series conveyor-under-spindle sounds like a far better design, similar to most horizontals, which do great with heavy chips, less so on floaters.

Got a Q: is there really any reason not to go R650 over a S700 (assuming specs are same - 16k, etc)? Diff in rigidity/vibration when doing mirror surface finishes? Or are the two machines functionally identical from a parts perspective?

 

[Mtndew]

producing a lot of chips, but evac has never been an issue

How much is a lot?
The production job we run produces a super high volume of chips. The bed wash cannot keep up and the chips will gather and build up around the exit at the back of the casting, and along the sides of the machine.
And of course the chip conveyor we have is absolute shit. The chips will seep out thru the holes under the belt where the coolant returns to the sump and clogging the screens for the pumps. We have to drag the screen and part of the tank daily when we're running that job.

 

[gkoenig]

For sure. Do you rep brother/yamazen? Or just a speedio fan? Would love to see a tour of your shop

I'm the new Yamazen rep for the Pacific Northwest (WA, OR, ID, MT) as of about 4 months ago, but I own my own S700 and did process development work for various mass-scale customers before they asked me to come work for them.

The machine that has chip issues does just copper and brass. Aluminum and plastics on S-series are solid. Copper, esp with coolant that can get sticky, and will result in buildup in the lazy rivers. The new R-series conveyor-under-spindle sounds like a far better design, similar to most horizontals, which do great with heavy chips, less so on floaters.

Yup, I can see copper and brass being a huge PITA. My first machine was a used Robodrill Mate (sold to me by the owner of PM, no less) and it did brass for it's production life before I got it. 6 months in, and I was still pulling handfuls of brass dust out of the thing - it is weighty and sticky and hard to deal with.

I might think of supplementing and upgrading the washdown pump to something with a bit more flow, and adding some more tubing to it. The system works amazing in aluminum and steel, but copper and brass are especially PITA materials that can benefit from more chooch.

Got a Q: is there really any reason not to go R650 over a S700 (assuming specs are same - 16k, etc)? Diff in rigidity/vibration when doing mirror surface finishes? Or are the two machines functionally identical from a parts perspective?

There is a slight dynamic downgrade in moving from the S700 to the R650 - C Frame construction vs. Traveling Column. Non-quantified guess, we're talking about a 5-10% speed reduction on the R650 to hit the accuracy and smoothness that an S700 can if you're trying to run everything balls-out. It is about the same hit you have going to the S700 from the S500 - which has the best total dynamics of any Speedio made owing to the small c-frame design (S300 has the same table as the S500, so same weight getting thrown around, just shorter ball screws by 100mm on each end).

I would need to see your exact cuts to know if it would make a difference, but I've never run into a situation where the massive productivity gains of an R series machine wouldn't make up for slightly reduced feed rates in *some* operations.

 

[Turbulent-BTUs]

Yup, I can see copper and brass being a huge PITA. My first machine was a used Robodrill Mate (sold to me by the owner of PM, no less) and it did brass for it's production life before I got it. 6 months in, and I was still pulling handfuls of brass dust out of the thing - it is weighty and sticky and hard to deal with.

Good info, thanks! So would you say going with the R650xd1 vs the R650X2 or S700 is the way to go with brass/copper? The conveyor in the machining area sounds like a big upgrade for us.

As for the S700 vs R650, mostly we'd want to just import programs to save us little downtime. The machines look identical for our purposes, but ya just never know with a new machine what quirks you need to deal with.

 

[Wsurfer]

Can you expand on this a little? We have lots of folks with S series machines in-production, most of them pounding away on aluminum and producing a lot of chips, but evac has never been an issue. Now, chips piling up in the back and aching over to spend the money on a *good* conveyor is common, but chip buildup in the enclosure is not an issue I've seen.

What is going on with your environment/application? I'm genuinely curious because I like to head such problems off at the pass, or at least know about them.

On a related note, I have a standard S500 with just the two coolant lines aimed at the spindle. The two coolant lines can blast some coolant, which Works fine on aluminum, but SS chips to pile up and not move when they fall into the troughs. I have to use a "pusher stick" to get them out the back. Once they start to collect, they form a woven "carpet" that does no want to move. Would the additional chip wash pump/system be enough volume to keep the SS chips moving ?.

 

[Mtndew]

Would the additional chip wash pump/system be enough volume to keep the SS chips moving ?.

That's what we have on our R450X1 pallet changer.
It works decent enough. Is it perfect? No. We still have to use a "push stick",but we have a pretty high volume of alum chips trying to evac the machine so take that for what it's worth.

 

[DavidScott]

I have a R650x2 and would say don't even think about a single table mill for production. That rotating table is way better in real life than on paper, other than the noise!!! Having my head inside the enclosure while swapping parts is REAL hard on my hearing. I am working on adding some sound proofing but with the rotating table it will be limited.
As for the programs they are the same as for a single table. You simply set which program to run on which table and press the pallet green button, not the other green button.
The only issue I have found with the rotating table is you can't get the coolant nozzles close to the part as the table divider will hit them.

 

[DavidScott]

Chip buildup problems? I have a 1hp 6 stage Grundfos that would solve them. 35 gpm @ 170 psi is why it's currently on the shelf but it did show me what a better pump can do.

 

[gkoenig]

Good info, thanks! So would you say going with the R650xd1 vs the R650X2 or S700 is the way to go with brass/copper? The conveyor in the machining area sounds like a big upgrade for us.

I think it is the better design.

The issue is that the new machines essentially can't have a side discharge conveyor, which was the benefit of the X1/X2 trough design that Brother was offering. Mind you, since the X1 came out - the trend has moved towards packing machines tightly side-to-side, so rear discharge conveyors are the market preference anyhow and the new design allows them to be shorter.

As for the S700 vs R650, mostly we'd want to just import programs to save us little downtime. The machines look identical for our purposes, but ya just never know with a new machine what quirks you need to deal with.

You'll be able to run the exact same code on an S700 or R650. When you get into really dynamic paths, the traveling column on the R needs to slow down a bit more to achieve the same results - all of this is handled by the High Accuracy system's acc/dec control, not by the programmer. You'll send the same program to the R650 as you will to the S700, but certain sections of complex 3D surfacing code are going to run a bit slower in the R is the only difference you'll notice if you take a stopwatch to each part of the cycle. Again though; that productivity increase with the pallet is going to nuke whatever minor cycle increase this is going to incur; the pallet changers are just such productivity monsters.

 

[Mtndew]

That rotating table is way better in real life than on paper, other than the noise!!!

100% true.
If you're swapping out parts while the machine is running you can't hear shit 3 feet away from you lol.
And yeah that rotating table is a dream. It's fast!

 

[Cole2534]

Chip buildup problems? I have a 1hp 6 stage Grundfos that would solve them. 35 gpm @ 170 psi is why it's currently on the shelf but it did show me what a better pump can do.

Got any interest in selling that pump?