Building up machining capacity

[hend.engineering]

Hi,
I currently have a 1996 Haas VFOE and have been getting by well enough though with recent work it's clear that a much faster spindle would dramatically speed up productivity with the current job.
I've been fishing around to see what next steps I could afford and they're way out of my league but then I discovered a 1997 VFOE for sale at only £2400!
Bargain I thought, I can double my capability for seriously small money, nearly a third what I paid for the original, and worst case move the older one on and be happy with faster rapids, if only the at the same rpm.
BUT, is it the sensible thing to do?

I have a smallish workshop and space is at a premium, but I can't stretch to a 12 or 15k spindle to double my output.

Do I put up with the productivity barrier and do the hard slog saving for the next step, or go the temporary cheap route to move things forwards?

I keep going around in circles. On the one hand it's twice the floor space gone, but the other it's an increase in table capacity, even if the spindle is just as slow as the other. etc. etc.


Your wisdom and experience most welcome.

 

[mhajicek]

It's going to depend on a lot of things. Are you doing prototype or production? Are you spending a lot of time tending the machine? Do you have more work lined up after the current job?

 

[Gordon Heaton]

Another advantage to both, if you can fit them in is redundancy. Doubtful both would go down at the same time.

 

[FamilyTradition]

If I were you, and the thing will fit in your workspace with the proper and safe clearances, I would go for it. Always a good excuse to use with the wife to build a bigger shop!

 

[RC Mech]

There’s nothing wrong with having excess capacity but think hard about why you feel you need it. Is it to service a single company/job?

It’s nearly universal that as soon as you buy another spindle that customer will go overseas/bankrupt/MIA.

 

[latheman78]

There’s nothing wrong with having excess capacity but think hard about why you feel you need it. Is it to service a single company/job?

It’s nearly universal that as soon as you buy another spindle that customer will go overseas/bankrupt/MIA.

Aren't you the Debbie Downer, and I thought I have a pessimistic attitude.

 

[Friar]

I've got a 97 OE, it's been a great slow as snails machine. Having a second spindle isn't bad but there's something to say for keeping things small and simple. Personally, I'd rather keep saving money to buy something 10-15 years newer than buying a second old machine that could be headed to the scrap yard at any given failure. But you didn't give us a whole lot of info about your situation as a whole so perhaps in the big picture it's a good decision.

 

[RC Mech]

Aren't you the Debbie Downer, and I thought I have a pessimistic attitude.

It’s a business decision and nothing more. Do try to keep up.

 

[M K]

Hi

I am in an identical situation to you,

I am a 1 man workshop in the UK and I also have a VF0E year 2000, with brushless servos and direct drive 7500rpm spindle

It’s a great machine but certainly no VF2SS lol

I also want a second machine and have no idea how people get to the point of buying a new £70k machine as it seems an impossible task still to me,

My reason for wanting a second machine is that when I have some production work on the go I also have some of my own products that would be good to be running at the same time or for the 1 off jobs I often get that would be good to do while production or batch work is going on the other machine, I don’t always need it but it would certainly help

As my budget is minimal I always watch the auctions for cheap older Haas machines but even then prices have gone up and by the time auction fees and machine moving/delivery is factored in they are all £8000 to £12000 machines that aren’t anything special

If I was you and there was a working haas vfoe for £2400 I’d snap it up because even if you spent another £6500 on it to replace screws and rails etc and had a nice fully working machine that would still be a bargain right now in the uk

I am about to buy another year 2000 vfoe that has power and board issues and is being sold as spares for £3000

I’m not afraid to get stuck in mechanically as I’ve replaced the x and z ballscrews on my machine, all the bearing packs etc and various other mechanical repairs

Also memory and parameter restores and memory upgrades, have a look at my YouTube videos, Kinzy Fabrications if you ever need help with that side of things as I don’t a few tutorials

My reason for taking a punt on a faulty vfoe is that a vector drive is worth £1500 to £2000
Brushless servos are say £400 each
Brushless motors £800 each
Etc etc etc so if I buy it and I can’t get it back to life then it’s worth the money for the spares for my other machine as the spec is identical but if I can spend £5000 or less to get it running and I ball bar test it and it’s good then il be happy

Good luck whatever you choose to do

Thanks
Marc

 

[RC Mech]

Most of the shop owners here save for a select few (Motion is one) are small potatoes, myself included. Now, there ain’t nuttin’ wrong with that. But it comes with a unique set of challenges. We cannot justify large industrial warehouse space, therefore you absolutely MUST have a handle on what your limited space is costing you. Just because something is cheap doesn’t mean you should buy it- you running a business or a hobby?

I just sent my manual mill down the road because in my spot it’s not worth the floor space.

Case in point above RE: being realistic: a customer of mine bought three fab machines to service a single customer of theirs mid last year. This 2nd degree customer sent all their fab to India in November 2021.

Guess who has their entire shop listed on Kijiji right now? Ask any automotive molder about this, it’s a scenario as old as time.

 

[latheman78]

It’s a business decision and nothing more. Do try to keep up.

Just joking I really appreciate the insult.

 

[hend.engineering]

Thanks everyone for the amazing replies, so much to take in, so many different ways of looking at it!

I've done a lot of soul searching and the one thing that's become clear is that the second machine would solve a short term problem but in actual fact after July I don't have anything lined up to keep the spindle of either turning.

Finding more work first is the important thing and perhaps that would give me the cashflow and confidence to buy a much newer machine.
The circular issue is that I may not be able to be competitive enough with a single out dated spindle but I should at least approach some other cnc firms in the locality and see if I can get an example part and price to judge the feasibility.

 

[EndlessWaltz]

Since you have replied with your shop work volume I would focus on the meantime on getting better and toolpathing, quick fixturing tricks, and new tooling to shorten cycles times or setups. Therefor more work done without needed capacity at this time.

 

[Garwood]

I don't think you gain much capacity adding more slow machines, but it does depend on your work.

 

[hend.engineering]

Hi

I am in an identical situation to you,

I am a 1 man workshop in the UK and I also have a VF0E year 2000, with brushless servos and direct drive 7500rpm spindle

Hi Mark,
As daft as it sounds I hadn't made the connection that you were the same person I got in touch with on eBay! Small world!

Work wise, it tends to be small bits and pieces which take a disproportionately long time to set up for and produce, the computer workflow is the bottleneck and not the machine MOST of the time.
Lately I've been kept busy because I've been lucky enough to get a job through a friend making parts for a world rally cross car, and this has highlighted the problem the other way. I have worked up the jig, job and the toolpaths in a reasonable time, but the machine can't cope with large programs or work for much more than an hour without popping out an error of one description or the other (Usually low Lub, or a 245(?) "command not recognised", which I realised after a while is that the buffer is full and it can't cope with one command in, one command out for some reason.

So in some respects, current machine will probably do fine once the large job is out the way, and I need to find more work which suits it henceforth! Easier said than done, but I'm going to do as much fishing as I can in a few weeks time and see where it gets me.

I keep seeing Hurco MV1s for great money but they're CAT40 and I have a good collection of BT40 holders and it seems daft to stock up with both. (I'd be interested in opinions of those who use both, if there are any?)

 

[hend.engineering]

I don't think you gain much capacity adding more slow machines, but it does depend on your work.

Agreed ,it does depend very much on the work, of which I need more!

 

[Ox]

Aren't you the Debbie Downer, and I thought I have a pessimistic attitude.

Yeah, she really got down, down there in Dallas!


-------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[triumph406]

I run parts with a mix of leadtimes, but with almost all the parts I run, adding another Fadal would double my output, and that doesn't mean racing from machine to machine to keep up. So if i had the inclination, wasn't 62 and didn't have a bad back I'd get another machine. As it is I'm on the long slide down to retirement

 

[GiroDyno]

Its already an old used machine, its depreciated about as much as possible. Buy it and run it, if it doesn't add the capacity you wanted post it for sale and you'll probably sell it for what you paid.
Running a shop with only one (old) spindle means any one issue that takes down that machine takes down the entire shop, even if the second isn't running all the time it may save you when the one is down and out for a few days.

Also if the two machines are twins it makes troubleshooting easier because you now have a second "known good" of every component, you can swap boards or test switches between the machines to figure out exactly what is wrong. We have two ancient Hardinge VTLs and it seems every two weeks we have to try swapping an amp or power supply between machines to find the source of some alarm.

 

[gkoenig]

Does the £2400 machine run? Is it currently making good parts?

If it is in good shape, go for it.

Your risk is buying a money/time/brain bandwidth drain. If you really can get a second spindle for damn near scrap value, I think you would be nuts not to do it... unless the machine is a POS, in which case, you would be nuts to do it outside of a hobby shop where you can do a 32 part, multi-year YouTube series on getting the Y axis functional again.