Buying first machine. Questions about Speedio vs. Okuma.

[SVFeingold]

I'm just curious as to why you bought a BMW M3, instead of some rare, boutique British car, or some new-comer electric car, from a maker that we've barely heard of.

Because it's a fun toy and I've specifically wanted one for like 15 years. Definitely not for the affordable service.

I'm not going to tell you what to do. But I will say, that I think it would be wise to STRONGLY consider a Brother, Robodrill, at the bare minimum, a Haas machine. When you consider that for example, by buying a Brother, you get awesome support from users on this forum, guys like Brotherfrank who DOMINATES those machines, and many other experience users on here who can help you with the broadesst of topics, down to the most minute detail for tuning these machines...

I think it's getting a little lost in all this that I agree and I'm fully aware of all that. I've been strongly considering those for years. The limiting factor is the budget and a lack of desire to create a whole new "project" in validating and refurbishing a heavily used mill. If I can find one that fits in the budget, I would be overjoyed to get one. Whether that's a result of a crazy deal or eventually deciding to bump the budget up. If I can't, then we're back to square one. If the budget is <$45k, the Brother is a tough sell. Not really interested in one that's 2 decades old and has 15k hours on it. If I decide to up the budget to $90k it's a different story altogether.

 

[SVFeingold]

I would buy an older used machine for under $10k cash to make my parts with before I bought that China thing. Not so much because I have anything against China, but because I've never heard of it and don't know anyone else who has either. IMO, a used 20 year old CNC from a top shelf Jap builder and a Fanuc is a way safer bet.

I totally get it. The difference for me is that I have heard of it, and I've heard from many people who own them. There aren't many unknowns remaining. I want a piece of equipment to be productive, not a project in and of itself, so the $10k mill + $20k + 6 months to refurbish it doesn't interest me. For sure there are some good deals to be had in the $40k range on used equipment, and if I happen to find one that checks all the boxes and that I can see and verify in person, I'd be happy to go that route.

 

[Cole2534]

2 years later and you haven't yet bought something?

 

[Jashley73]

Because it's a fun toy and I've specifically wanted one for like 15 years. Definitely not for the affordable service.



I think it's getting a little lost in all this that I agree and I'm fully aware of all that. I've been strongly considering those for years. The limiting factor is the budget and a lack of desire to create a whole new "project" in validating and refurbishing a heavily used mill. If I can find one that fits in the budget, I would be overjoyed to get one. Whether that's a result of a crazy deal or eventually deciding to bump the budget up. If I can't, then we're back to square one. If the budget is <$45k, the Brother is a tough sell. Not really interested in one that's 2 decades old and has 15k hours on it. If I decide to up the budget to $90k it's a different story altogether.

Be grateful that your BMW is so easily serviced, with a huge North American parts & technical support network behind it. Complete with 24 hour roadside service & loaner vehicle if absolutely necessary. Oh, and "good-will" repairs if something goes really sideways out of the ordinary.

As a multiple older BMW owner myself, I'm no stranger to them. (Not M3's, but Bimmer's in general.) I'm also no stranger to working on them. In fact, once you dive in, they're not that bad at all to work on. Especially since there's a thousand Gen-Z'ers who want to be YouTube stars, and you can find virtually any repair needed online.




A machine tool isn't that much different, or difficult to work on should the need arise. I also don't think you need to be scared of 20-30 year old machines either - especially something like a RoboDrill. Honestly, I'd wager a bet to say that if your 20 year old Haas, Okuma, Brother, Mori, Fanuc machine broke down, you could very well have the parts replaced/issue diagnosed & fixed before you got warranty service on a knock-off machine.

Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I think you might be underestimating how easy it would be to find a good, used, inexpensive machine with tons of life left in it. That's all.

 

[Garwood]

I don't think the 20 year old machine needs months of work and $20k in parts holds any water at all.

I say don't buy a piece of shit and use some of that intelligence to sniff out a deal. Buy a machine. Get it powered up and running parts.

If you had bought a decent machine two years ago you could have already built products and a business around it.

In the last two years I've sold 6 CNC machines and bought four. The most recent I bought I had to sell two machines to make room for it and remove/reinstall a wall of my shop to get it in. This is in addition to running a full time business and being a dad to 3 kids and a husband.

If you want to do stuff do it. If you're paralyzed at the starting line for 2 years this sounds like a really bad direction for you.

 

[SVFeingold]

A machine tool isn't that much different, or difficult to work on should the need arise.

This is the point I was making earlier re: why the lack of a network of technicians isn't a deal-breaker. I don't see the basis on which folks keep saying it's a total piece of knockoff shit, it's garbage, it will definitely fall apart, you'll definitely never find a Siemens servo anywhere, the company will definitely ghost you tomorrow, etc. Aside from "well I haven't heard of it and it's Chinese." I disagree obviously, but it's fine. Nobody's going to change their mind on the topic. It's just not worth re-hashing any further. I hear you loud and clear.

I think you might be underestimating how easy it would be to find a good, used, inexpensive machine with tons of life left in it. That's all.

You might be right.

If you want to do stuff do it. If you're paralyzed at the starting line for 2 years this sounds like a really bad direction for you.

I touched on this in the initial update. The mill isn't the starting line, nor is it a necessary step, nor is the lack of one blocking anything, nor will any potential business be built around the mill. It's a prototyping tool, and otherwise something that would just be fun to have. Rather than obsessing over a mill I'm going to refocus on the actual design/engineering work, and when a clear, tangible benefit from owning a mill can be identified I'll buy one. If a new or lightly used Brother/Haas is available at that time, that fits in the budget, I'm more than happy to get one. Not sure what else to say really.

 

[Mtndew]

Once I'm ready to buy a mill and ready to hand over a check, the whole process should be wrapped up in a couple weeks and done with.

That's what we thought when we handed over the check back in July.
Still waiting for delivery.
It's been 8 months.

 

[Fal Grunt]

I ran a Hermle by day and came home to a 1944 Kearney Trecker than can do everything a CNC can do except a tool change and a thousand times slower.

I bought a 1989 POS Bridgeport machining center Fanuc 0m in 2016 for $3k, learned a bunch, developed and made a bunch of parts. It did everything a Brother does except a hundred times slower.

I bought my Brother in 2018. I bought it to develop and make my own products and transition from doing work for other folks to doing work for myself. It's been a hard road, but every year gets better. Brother (yamazen) continues to be amazing and supportive.

There are boat loads of nice machines out there for little money. In reality, I SHOULD have put another *step* before buying my Brother, but I wanted something fast, with technology, so that it could run un-attended. Older machines can be adapted, but I am not that smart. While most here would laugh at a half hour or hour being called "un attended" to me the fact I can work on something else, or eat lunch with my kids or work in the yard with my wife while the machine runs was extremely important to me. We used to do 3, 4, 5 day and longer unattended runs machining 62+ Rc material. Will my parts every need that level of production? I doubt it!

There is a machinery dealer north of me with probably dozens, but certainly a solid dozen, machining centers under $25k that are in anywhere from good used to excellent condition. The owner is extremely knowledgeable, and VERY willing to help if you share what it is your looking for. Find one like that near you. Don't waste their time, but get to know them. Bring a knowledgeable friend. Pay a tech to go with you to inspect the machine. If they won't let you inspect the machine under power walk away.

 

[SVFeingold]

That's what we thought when we handed over the check back in July.
Still waiting for delivery.
It's been 8 months.

Yikes! What'd you buy?

There is a machinery dealer north of me with probably dozens, but certainly a solid dozen, machining centers under $25k that are in anywhere from good used to excellent condition. The owner is extremely knowledgeable, and VERY willing to help if you share what it is your looking for. Find one like that near you.

Not a bad idea. Shouldn't be too difficult on the west coast. If I can find something with a modern control that's not heavily used and in good condition, I'm happy to go that route. The section 179 deduction effectively cuts 40~45% off the total price, so that's something to consider...

 

[Fal Grunt]

Not a bad idea. Shouldn't be too difficult on the west coast. If I can find something with a modern control that's not heavily used and in good condition, I'm happy to go that route. The section 179 deduction effectively cuts 40~45% off the total price, so that's something to consider...

You must make a metric shit ton more than me if you think your going to be able to deduct the full 40-45%. I’d recommend running that by your accountant first.

 

[SVFeingold]

You must make a metric shit ton more than me if you think your going to be able to deduct the full 40-45%. I’d recommend running that by your accountant first.

Still looking into it. The deduction would be 35% on my federal taxes - same tax bracket before and after the deduction unless I more than 2x my budget - and ~10% on CA state tax, but the latter is limited to a $25k deduction. If the equipment is <=$40k it ends up being a ~40-45% deduction. At $100k around 38%. I'd certainly do well to run some scenarios and chat with an accountant on whether taking the full deduction or using a depreciation schedule makes more sense, in light of the CA limitation. Not something I'm really digging into at the moment but it's a compelling benefit.

 

[Mtndew]

Yikes! What'd you buy?

Nothing too special or out of the ordinary. But it had to be shipped from Korea.

 

[gustafson]

You must make a metric shit ton more than me if you think your going to be able to deduct the full 40-45%. I’d recommend running that by your accountant first.

2021 Tax Deductions for New & Used Equipment Purchases | SMB Machinery

Pretty sure you can write off 100 percent of a machine purchase if you choose.

Section 179

 

[cosmos_275]

2021 Tax Deductions for New & Used Equipment Purchases | SMB Machinery

Pretty sure you can write off 100 percent of a machine purchase if you choose.

Section 179

That threw me too. Maybe he means the tax he'd pay on the money if he didn't buy the machine, not sure. Pretty sure you get to deduct the whole thing over time with depreciation. If you take the money as income, you pay min 15% FED, 15% SE, plus state. Maybe that's the calc.

 

[gustafson]

That threw me too. Maybe he means the tax he'd pay on the money if he didn't buy the machine, not sure. Pretty sure you get to deduct the whole thing over time with depreciation. If you take the money as income, you pay min 15% FED, 15% SE, plus state. Maybe that's the calc.

What is newish is you can write off in the first year 100 percent

If you have other income I think you can even go below zero but don't quote me

 

[Rick Finsta]

You can carry over losses but it generally doesn't make sense for an LLC that is filing on a 1040 Schedule C in the first few years. Then, you want to retain as much depreciation as possible so when you start making money you can offset it to stay in a lower tax bracket. Corporate tax brackets are a lot smaller steps so accountants that don't deal with disregarded entities will often screw an LLC owner out of a ton of money later on by treating you like an S-Corp.

Ask me how I know and why I'm looking for a new accountant...

 

[gustafson]

You can carry over losses but it generally doesn't make sense for an LLC that is filing on a 1040 Schedule C in the first few years. Then, you want to retain as much depreciation as possible so when you start making money you can offset it to stay in a lower tax bracket. Corporate tax brackets are a lot smaller steps so accountants that don't deal with disregarded entities will often screw an LLC owner out of a ton of money later on by treating you like an S-Corp.

Ask me how I know and why I'm looking for a new accountant...

When you are starting out, absolutely

Otherwise, money now is worth more than money later

If you made a lot of money last year, and don't know what will happen this year, it 'might' be useful to write it off now

 

[SVFeingold]

That threw me too. Maybe he means the tax he'd pay on the money if he didn't buy the machine, not sure. Pretty sure you get to deduct the whole thing over time with depreciation.

Yep that's pretty much what I meant. A $100k machine effectively becomes a ~$65k machine after considering the tax savings. Not quite that straightforward but you get the idea.