Buying first machine. Questions about Speedio vs. Okuma.

[memphisjed]

I think it was camscam who earl in this post suggested a full five axis machine with valid reasons. I think just the opposite a nc knee mill with 4th might be better option if you are doing proof of concept work. the mill is just one tool, not even the primary tool, in your lab/play room. Looking at stuffmadehere mad projects- all done a tormach with less than desirable finishes he can go thru many iterations till something in the design works - his primary tool is designing.
Any mill should get you a surfacing finish close enough to sand out with a foam backed sanding pad- A flex shaft can save you a few cars worth of fun coupons buying a 'cheap' mill over a fancy mill.

Of course if you are trying to make product/money with the mill the metric changes. Once your proof of concept is complete have a real machine shop make the parts.

 

[SVFeingold]

In the meantime, go tell the Germans how it doesn't matter where they buy their gas from.

At the moment I'm too busy comforting my mom who's trying to get our family in Ukraine away from the border while watching the city my sister and I were born in get bombed, but thanks for the tip, newly minted expert on Russian history and culture.

I very explicitly outlined some of the ways in which the "supply chain matters." Really don't know how you missed that because nothing you said has anything to do with what you quoted and either way you're missing the point. Just because the country of origin for something isn't "China" that doesn't mean that none of your money goes to China. And we're talking about a single machine tool here. Not "buying stuff," and nowhere did I ever advocate for anyone's entire supply chain to be Chinese nor am I evangelizing any Chinese products to anyone. Is that clear enough? If you want to reply to my post then reply to my post. Don't willfully misunderstand it for an opportunity to rant.

Who do you think has benefited more from industrial equipment sales to China? China or the machine tool builders? When Brother or Haas sell a machine to China, who benefits more? Brother/Haas who get their $150k, or China who get their millions of dollars of productivity out of that machine? Where's your outrage and grandstanding on that front? Have you petitioned Haas to stop selling equipment to China? How about it? Have you ever raised this concern to Brother? Have you ever even thought about it?

Supporting MTBs that go to great lengths and use your money to ensure that China remains competitive as they try to break or expand into that market doesn't stick it to China as much as you seem to think it does. They make fantastic machines, and that's what you care about. If you're willing to turn a blind eye to the bigger picture because it benefits you, then you should go talk to Germany about their pipeline, because you're more alike than you think.

Here are public import records for Haas. Go ahead and filter by those originating from China in the past year. I count nearly 2,000 containers and close to 40,000 tons of shipments in the last year alone. Browse the HS codes. Machine bases, columns, saddles, wire harnesses, transfer gears, worm gears, sheet metal, tool holders, etc. But I'm sure they get those for free, yeah? It's just a coincidence their assembly plant is 5 miles from a port on the west coast.

Yet if I'd said I was buying a Haas there would be none of this soapboxing or virtue signaling. Not one word. Nevermind that buying a Haas may well mean that more of your purchasing power ends up in China. Shop full of Haas, no problem, buy 1,000 of them for all anyone cares. But oh man, the occasional guy dares to think about buying a solitary $40k Chinese machine and the True Patriots show up to puff up their chests, because that guy's machine is the real threat here.

The information is out there if you care this much about it. Don't want to think about it? Fine, great, I don't care, I'm not gonna take the initiative to harass anyone about it. Anger doesn't counteract ignorance so spare me already.

 

[SVFeingold]

A Speedio appears to be good fit. We just took delivery of an R650 last week.
All-in-all, the actual cost of buying a good VMC can be a lot less than the bottom line on the invoice. It really just depends on your situation.

Very true, and great points otherwise! I'm trying to avoid thinking about the tax benefits since it's too easy to justify nudging that budget upward. The tax break would effectively cut 45% off the machine price. So the same 60k budget effectively becomes ~90k once all is said and done.

It seems like Speedios have crept up in price which is unfortunate. In consideration of the tax break, if an S700 could be found close to EOY for that much, with the relevant options, that'd be extremely tempting.

the mill is just one tool, not even the primary tool, in your lab/play room.

...

Of course if you are trying to make product/money with the mill the metric changes. Once your proof of concept is complete have a real machine shop make the parts.

Yep, I'm trying to enforce a stricter budget to make sure there's plenty to go around for the other tools. But I've got quite a few tools already.

I'm not really interested in a knee mill. Just too far outside the requirement. And would be marginally useful for what I'll be doing, not to mention the time involved to make each part will be much longer. Plus I never want to go back to manual tool changes...

The ultimate point of the mill is A) for fast iterations of consumer product prototypes, and B) for fun. I don't expect it to ever make money directly, or plan to run production. I wouldn't necessarily refuse, but it's not the plan or the intent and the aforementioned budget limit is in consideration of that. As long as it fulfills A+B that's all I need.

 

[gkoenig]

Who do you think has benefited more from industrial equipment sales to China?

Your employer.

 

[bosmos_j]

I didn't read your whole update, but you drive a 70k beamer and can't afford a good quality mill? If your budget is stuck 20k shy of a good machine, trade that thing in for a corolla. I'd be curious if the Syll works out, I suppose the odds are pretty good but seems risky to me.

 

[SVFeingold]

I didn't read your whole update, but you drive a 70k beamer and can't afford a good quality mill?

It was considerably less than that.

It's not so much that I can't afford the mill, but it's definitely a huge expense. If it wasn't it'd be a done deal by now. It's more that I'm trying to balance the utility and enjoyment I'll get out of it with the upfront cost, and also avoid adding a bunch of extra stress - like that whole idea earlier in the thread of having Haas disassemble the UMC and rebuild it to get it through the door. Ain't nobody got time for that.

If your budget is stuck 20k shy of a good machine, trade that thing in for a corolla. I'd be curious if the Syll works out, I suppose the odds are pretty good but seems risky to me.

Hah, that's difficult to argue with! I'm very curious about the Syil too but truth be told, in consideration of the narrowed scope of my search over the last 2 years, I'm leaning again towards a Brother. The only thing that worries me is the multiple other threads/comments I've seen about how much the prices have increased.

There's also the inescapable fact that a Brother would retain far more value than the Syil and would be easier to sell, especially with the light use it'd get, and really it's a very slowly depreciating asset I can always offload if needed.

 

[Garwood]

I make automotive products primarily. I've been self employed doing this stuff for 16 years. In that time I always have a decent pickup truck worth around $3k-$10k, but the automotive markets that I cater to are considerably more valuable vehicles. I buy expensive vehicles, develop products around them, drive the shit out of them and sell them to fund the next and the next. All the while selling the products created along the way.

If you want to own an expensive vehicle turn it into a for profit endeavor. Buy the Corolla so you can flip the BMW. Of coarse you need the Brother to make that plan work.

 

[Fal Grunt]

That's not what I said. "Without diving into how much of the money goes where it's largely a feel-good measure" is what I said. I don't think you picked up what I was putting down. The label on the machine doesn't tell you the whole story about where your dollar goes. You're lucky if it tells you half. COO isn't especially informative and does not mean that 100% of that thing and all of its constituents were mined, processed, and assembled in country.

Meanwhile: Brother sells tens of thousands of CNC machines in China. By buying a Brother machine you're supporting a company that's actively helping China compete against domestic manufacturing and generate tens of billions of dollars for their economy. The Brother machines we see in the US are runoff from that world. High-volume manufacturing is the focus and the majority of that's in China, we just benefit from it over here. Same goes for Robodrills. I've never seen anybody here bat an eyelash about it. Not once have I seen "I just can't ethically support a company that's actively enabling Chinese manufacturing and imperialism to this degree, who in the world could logically do that?" We're overjoyed to benefit from the fruits of all this overseas competition without concern for what it represents.

It's not a black and white China/Not-China question. There's a spectrum and on that spectrum you chose a Brother machine instead of, say, a Haas. The former has done way more to bolster China. Why didn't you get the Haas? "It's slower," "it's less reliable," "it doesn't fit my requirements." Too bad. Figure it out. That's what people do when they make sacrifices for their principles. Though let's be real, rah-rah all-American Haas would love nothing more than to 10x their exports to China, so mostly we're bickering over lines drawn in our little sandbox while the world moves past us.

To make it clear I'm just playing devil's advocate and I don't personally look at Brother, or most any company, that way. I've got nothing but respect for Brother and I'd get one in a heartbeat. But this is still the reality. And you, like most of us, have no qualms about helping them create it. So unless you specifically chose Brother instead of a Chinese machine you were considering, at greater expense to you, primarily due to the nationality of the company that made it, please don't attach lofty ideals to decisions you were going to make anyway.

Where do the tungsten and cobalt in your carbide tools come from? Where do the inductors, capacitors, resistors, diodes, active components, connectors, and bare PCBs in your servo drives and controls come from? Where do the constituent chemicals of your coolant originate? The fasteners in your mill? The seals on the bearings? The lubricants? The wire harnesses? The spindle motor windings? Do you know all of this? No you don't. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that because that's an unreasonable expectation to have of anyone. This would be a full-time job and you've got other stuff to worry about.

Which is why I don't feel the need to preach to others about it and I don't have any illusion that I'm morally superior for tweaking the lever here or there while maintaining the same overall lifestyle that directly led to the massive industrial growth of China in the first place. American manufacturing would be in a better state if we spent less time sitting around bitching about China. Our Chinese competitors certainly don't. And while I appreciate that you don't begrudge me my choices, you're still happy to casually throw out the implication that I'm doing something stupid and immoral. You know, just because. Whereas you're innocent because the thing you bought has a different country printed on the package.

For sure, I'd prefer a non-Chinese machine, for all the reasons mentioned in the thread including yours. When the time comes I'll get a Haas or Brother, no question, if they check all the boxes and can be found within the budget. I think I was reasonably comprehensive in addressing the potential risks/benefits in my last post. If I missed anything that would throw a wrench in the works, I'm all ears, but "boo hiss China bad" isn't helpful. It's not a productive area of discussion, creates pointless animosity, and dilutes relevant discussion. I don't look down on anyone for their choices along these lines because I understand that none of us are innocent in this and we're all doing our best based on the information and limitations we have. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

I understood your point pretty clearly. I am not being cavalier about my point at all, "just because". Country of Origin is extremely relevant to me. It's not grandstanding or "virtue signaling". The money is just as important as the materials. I don't think it dilutes the discussion. It is a consideration of anything and everything I buy. One of the reasons I bought Brother was the fact that as far as I could determine they had LESS Chinese components than a Haas. Haas's statement of being US made is laughable at best. As is the "MADE IN USA" air compressor I bought. It has a Huntington Steel tank, everything else about it is Chinese. I bought the air compressor out of necessity, and at that moment, I was standing at Lowes looking at Chinese, Chinese, or Chinese with a US tank.

I understand supply chain complexity. I worked at a company that customers had COO requirements. Imagine building a production machine with 300,000 components that can't have components from certain countries?

Carbide, cobalt, titanium, etc are well documented and discussed topics. Some of them are inescapable. Some of them are really tough. Some of them you have nearly no information and very few choices.

Point is, I do the best that I can with a little research and consideration. A machine tool is a big easy one. There are a LOT of reasons I did not buy a Haas, and many of them have little to no bearing on why you would or would not buy a Haas.

I was approached recently about doing work for a US company, who very proudly and aggressively advertises their US made products. Their NDA was extremely weird, and I sent it to my lawyer to review. Her advice was to skip the whole thing unless I REALLY needed the money. Turns out that the company is owned by a shell company that is owned by a shell company that is owned by an offshore company that has ties to a Russian oil billionaire. Oh, he is also the owner one of Russia's largest arms producer. I walked away from (for me) a considerable amount of work, because MORALLY, I knew exactly where the profits from that company was going. It's a double edged sword, the company was hiring me to solve some problems. If their profits increase, they would hire more workers, expand the plant, create new products, etc etc.

I am not looking down on you, as I said, this is important to me. If it isn't important to you, then that's fine. I have customers who do not care where their steel comes from. I lose work because my prices are higher because I do not buy from China or Russia. I haven't... for going on decades now. I was merely stating why I think buying a chinese mill is a problem. I limit any comments on Haas because it immediately ignites a Brother vs Haas clan war that IS NOT helpful.

 

[SVFeingold]

I am not looking down on you, as I said, this is important to me. If it isn't important to you, then that's fine. I have customers who do not care where their steel comes from. I lose work because my prices are higher because I do not buy from China or Russia. I haven't... for going on decades now. I was merely stating why I think buying a chinese mill is a problem. I limit any comments on Haas because it immediately ignites a Brother vs Haas clan war that IS NOT helpful.

Touche, well said. I stand by what I said in a general sense but my apologies for assuming too much about your views. I agree with pretty much everything you said.

For what it's worth I avoid Chinese sourced material/equipment given a choice. Especially raw materials. I'm certainly aware of the many risks and disadvantages. I'd consider making an exception in this case because the price difference to get me where I need to be could be close to 2x. I'd much prefer to make things in the US, and if any of my product ideas go anywhere I fully intend to manufacture them in the US to the extent possible. I've always been a proponent of that because it is important to me.

If $100k was an easy expense, I'd go with the non-Chinese mill 10/10 times. Just as I'm sure many getting a Haas would prefer to get a machine that was twice as expensive but had minimal China-sourced components/materials if they could.

In the meantime we do the best we can with the resources we have. The alternative would be just doing nothing if you can't bridge the gap between zero and an expensive machine. Which in the long run means fewer shops, less capability, and less competitive manufacturing stateside. Pushing even more of it to China. A startup badgered out of getting a cheap Chinese mill might just end up sending their prototype work to China because if they're looking in that price range to begin with they probably can't afford too many US-based hours at $100-$200 per. Even a Chinese mill in the US is a net positive, IMHO, because the value it generates will remain in the US. To me that's the most important part, and in the end we both have the same goal.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

 

[DanielG]

Not sure, I need to do more research to get a better understanding of the pros and cons. Ideally get some hands on time with any of them. They're all modern and reliable controls so I have no concerns on that front. It'll come down to the details if I do end up going with Syil in the end.

If I was forced to pick today I'd go with the Siemens 828D. Seems to be well liked enough with a great interface and half-decent conversational programming capabilities to boot. Not that the last one is all that important but hey, why not? Could come in handy for quick adapters and test fixtures and the like.

The things I hear about Fanuc are all over the map in terms of usability, options pricing, etc. Perhaps most of the complaints come from older controls and aren't relevant today. One that stuck out in particular was a lack of syntax checking until a program errors out during run-time, and also things like axes directions changing (instead of +X always being in the same direction) based on bizarre and arbitrary rules. Deciphering Fanuc's naming conventions is a small project in itself.

The Syntec seems a bit like a middle ground in terms of usability/interface, and also has a few on-paper advantages (and disadvantages).

One good piece of advice I received many years ago was to never buy an unusual control for the builder. My last employer made that mistake. They bought a large post mill that was sold 80-90% with Siemens (or maybe it was Mitsubishi). We were a Fanuc shop, so they bought it with Fanuc, it was not as well integrated as it should have been. Syil seems to push Siemens over Fanuc.

 

[bryan_machine]

What DanielG said - if they do 80% siemans and 17% fanuc and 3% fidia, better think long and hard about ordering it with the siemans.

And if you really want, say, a Heidenhain, find a vendor where that's a big fraction of what they build....

 

[Jashley73]

For clarity's sake... Don't get too emotionally involved in my & others comments against buying a chinese machine - Take them for their most practical warnings...

When you buy a low-cost chinese machine - which will undoubtedly come from a shaky dealer/importer channel, YOU ARE RISKING YOUR LONG-TERM SUPPORT for when problems inevitably arrives.

When you buy a name-brand machine such as Brother/Okuma/Mori/Mazak/Makino/Hass - the most valuable thing that you are purchasing is the peace of mind that there is going to be support from a very solid dealer/manufacturer presence here in the USA. THAT is why you buy name brand. New or used.


The only other practical thing you need to worry about - How long will it take to get the parts & back up & running? With a name brand machine, you're probably looking at 3-5 days for most things, 4-weeks tops for something really specialty. With a low-cost, sketchy chinese/taiwanese machine - good luck....




Again, THAT is why you buy name brand. New or used.

 

[SVFeingold]

What DanielG said - if they do 80% siemans and 17% fanuc and 3% fidia, better think long and hard about ordering it with the siemans.

Great point I hadn't considered. I'll add that to my list of questions for them. I assume you meant to say ordering it without the Siemens.

When you buy a low-cost Chinese machine - which will undoubtedly come from a shaky dealer/importer channel, YOU ARE RISKING YOUR LONG-TERM SUPPORT for when problems inevitably arrives.

It's a risk for sure, and like most risks it can be bounded and managed. Everyone I've found who runs one seems pretty thrilled with it, they've had minimal to no problems with them, the parts that come off them look pretty good, the machine itself appears to be shockingly accurate for what it is, the company has been around 20 years, and they've always responded to my emails quickly and comprehensively and offered up any info I asked for. It's got me curious. A bunch of people own one within driving distance, and that'd be a prerequisite field-trip before ordering one.

The 5 days vs. 4 weeks thing isn't much of a deal-breaker in my case though it obviously is for most of you. I'm not running production or job-shopping or otherwise doing time-critical work that can't be off-loaded to local shops once in a blue moon. Whether it lasts for 20 years isn't important to me.

If I end up deciding to spend more and/or browse classifieds for a month or six (or wait for a sale), I'd 100% rather get a Brother/Haas. Otherwise I'm happy to get the ball rolling with the "other" mill.

 

[70olds]

Great point I hadn't considered. I'll add that to my list of questions for them. I assume you meant to say ordering it without the Siemens.



It's a risk for sure, and like most risks it can be bounded and managed. Everyone I've found who runs one seems pretty thrilled with it, they've had minimal to no problems with them, the parts that come off them look pretty good, the machine itself appears to be shockingly accurate for what it is, the company has been around 20 years, and they've always responded to my emails quickly and comprehensively and offered up any info I asked for. It's got me curious. A bunch of people own one within driving distance, and that'd be a prerequisite field-trip before ordering one.

The 5 days vs. 4 weeks thing isn't much of a deal-breaker in my case though it obviously is for most of you. I'm not running production or job-shopping or otherwise doing time-critical work that can't be off-loaded to local shops once in a blue moon. Whether it lasts for 20 years isn't important to me.

If I end up deciding to spend more and/or browse classifieds for a month or six (or wait for a sale), I'd 100% rather get a Brother/Haas. Otherwise I'm happy to get the ball rolling with the "other" mill.

I would try to find shops that have one AND have equipment from the bigger names. People who only have that machine might think it's amazing, because compared to a knee mill it is. Those same people don't know what they don't know though from the lack of reference.

 

[SVFeingold]

I would try to find shops that have one AND have equipment from the bigger names. People who only have that machine might think it's amazing, because compared to a knee mill it is. Those same people don't know what they don't know though from the lack of reference.

Definitely. I think there are a few around here (or within a few hours drive) who also run Haas, Doosan, Okuma, etc. either in their own shop or at work. The maker types coming from a knee mill, as you said, won't have a good point of reference.

 

[bryan_machine]

"if they do 80% siemans and 17% fanuc and 3% fidia, better think long and hard about ordering it with the siemans."

Iffy wording, sorry.

What I mean was you'd better consider in this case siemans to be the default, and a very very good reason to order/buy such a machine without that. And as nice as the fidia may be, you'd best really grok what you are getting into.

And so, while Doosan makes respectable machines, and now lists a 5-axis machine with a Heidanhain, the local dealer admits they've not seen one, nor have any expericence with them. So no thanks.

 

[trochoidalpath]

Definitely. I think there are a few around here (or within a few hours drive) who also run Haas, Doosan, Okuma, etc. either in their own shop or at work. The maker types coming from a knee mill, as you said, won't have a good point of reference.

I think I made this offer long ago in the thread but I'll repeat it here -- I'm in the Bay Area. If you want to see/play with a S500X1 + T200A, shoot me a DM. Hell, send me a part and we'll run it.

 

[SVFeingold]

I think I made this offer long ago in the thread but I'll repeat it here -- I'm in the Bay Area. If you want to see/play with a S500X1 + T200A, shoot me a DM. Hell, send me a part and we'll run it.

I will definitely take you up on that! I'm in the south bay (Campbell) so hopefully not too far from you.

 

[Jashley73]

Great point I hadn't considered. I'll add that to my list of questions for them. I assume you meant to say ordering it without the Siemens.



It's a risk for sure, and like most risks it can be bounded and managed. Everyone I've found who runs one...

I'm just curious as to why you bought a BMW M3, instead of some rare, boutique British car, or some new-comer electric car, from a maker that we've barely heard of. I mean, you're in the San Francisco Bay area, so I'm sure there's a handful of wealthy fanatics of brand _____ boutique car manufacturer who could fawn about how awesome it is...

(I'm sure you see my point...)

I'm not going to tell you what to do. But I will say, that I think it would be wise to STRONGLY consider a Brother, Robodrill, at the bare minimum, a Haas machine. When you consider that for example, by buying a Brother, you get awesome support from users on this forum, guys like Brotherfrank who DOMINATES those machines, and many other experience users on here who can help you with the broadesst of topics, down to the most minute detail for tuning these machines...

I'm using Brother as an example, but you will find that same level of support from other name brand machine manufacturers. New or used.

When you go with a no-name brand, you are tossing that wealth of support off to the side. And you give up a lot of resale value as well, should you decide that machine tool ownership is not for you...

 

[Garwood]

I stick to used Fanuc powered Jap machines because there's a huge following and a bunch of people that use and keep them running. If I needed to make a ton of small parts I would buy a new Brother hands down because they have that same kind of owner/user/OEM support and they're low cost for what they are.

I would buy an older used machine for under $10k cash to make my parts with before I bought that China thing. Not so much because I have anything against China, but because I've never heard of it and don't know anyone else who has either. IMO, a used 20 year old CNC from a top shelf Jap builder and a Fanuc is a way safer bet.