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Cage match: Deckel FP3NC vs Hermle UWF721

More details:
What generation FP3NC ?
3150 spindle, or “flip head” 6300 rpm spindle.
Which control? Dialog 2,3,4 or Dialog 11? Or 3M , Hurco or Contour?
Table setup? Plain angle table , or fully adjustable “ tool makers “ table.

What configuration on the Hermle?
Not conversant with that machine, but I will say that you will definitely have a better wider base of support , info and accessories with the Deckel.

Cheers Ross
 
FP3NC is supposed to be a 1986, not sure which Dialog it is, I asked but haven't heard back. Neither machine has a universal, just plain table. Not sure if this will give any more info. I'm only familiar with these in passing.

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That FP3NC is a flip head machine.
Will have 2 speed range (manually selected) giving a spindle speed range through programmable gear changes from 35 to 6300 rpm on the vertical.
The horizontal spindle does not have the speed doubling gear so the spindle range from 35 through 3150 rpm.

Both spindles have sensitive quills( hand)
Will be a 380v machine , should have a factory step up transformer.
Control most likely a Dialog 4
Capible full 3 axis contouring.
Limited memory ( 256k) can process 9,999 program lines within that 256.
Need hardware option to “ drip feed”

Not the fastest control, but it’s paired to the best operator interface ever. (IMO)
Runs G code ( modified, spindle is called by an “S+- call )
Multi part G code is prompted to fill in the correct info.
Code is displayed horizontally
Has parameter programming that allows use of variables and math equations to fill program values. ( powerful)
Has local sub routines and loop/ replace, as well as macros.
Has limited graphics(2d ) to proof completed programs.
Std RS232 interface.
No tool changer.
As easy to run for “ manual” style work as any knee mill.
Control allows setting spindle speed, feed rate , start the spindle and engage the feed all without entering any code.

Full friction ways. Positioning via Heidenhain scales.
Setup to run 4( requires axis card and servo drive cards(2))
Can have issues with way gauling on the inside vertical box ways. ( Z)
Most common on early machines, later have better heat treatment and are less susceptible.
To inspect, run the (Z) to the top of travel, inspect from below the vertical slide. Problems occur on the inside face of the box opposite the operators side of the machine. ( hand wheels)

Control does not ( D4) have user parameters all software is hard burned on e- proms so start up is instant, any the control will not loose parameters of the machine sits w/o power.

Does need a battery to hold programs in memory.
Control is built with discrete components on cards. There is documentation for most cards, cards are repairable.
Good support exists in Germany.
FPS or Frantz Singer still supports these machines(FP-NC)

Cheers Ross
 
Last edited:
That FP3NC is a flip head machine.
Will have 2 speed range (manually selected) giving a spindle speed range through programmable gear changes from 35 to 6300 rpm on the vertical.
The horizontal spindle does not have the speed doubling gear so the spindle range from 35 through 3150 rpm.

Both spindles have sensitive quills( hand)
Will be a 380v machine , should have a factory step up transformer.
Control most likely a Dialog 4
Capible full 3 axis contouring.
Limited memory ( 256k) can process 9,999 program lines within that 256.
Need hardware option to “ drip feed”

Not the fastest control, but it’s paired to the best operator interface ever. (IMO)
Runs G code ( modified, spindle is called by an “S+- call )
Multi part G code is prompted to fill in the correct info.
Code is displayed horizontally
Has parameter programming that allows use of variables and math equations to fill program values. ( powerful)
Has local sub routines and loop/ replace, as well as macros.
Has limited graphics(2d ) to proof completed programs.
Std RS232 interface.
No tool changer.
As easy to run for “ manual” style work as any knee mill.
Control allows setting spindle speed, feed rate , start the spindle and engage the feed all without entering any code.

Full friction ways. Positioning via Heidenhain scales.
Setup to run 4( requires axis card and servo drive cards(2))
Can have issues with way gauling on the inside vertical box ways. ( Z)
Most common on early machines, later have better heat treatment and are less susceptible.
To inspect, run the (Z) to the top of travel, inspect from below the vertical slide. Problems occur on the inside face of the box opposite the operators side of the machine. ( hand wheels)

Control does not ( D4) have user parameters all software is hard burned on e- proms so start up is instant, any the control will not loose parameters of the machine sits w/o power.

Does need a battery to hold programs in memory.
Control is built with discrete components on cards. There is documentation for most cards, cards are repairable.
Good support exists in Germany.
FPS or Frantz Singer still supports these machines(FP-NC)

Cheers Ross
Ross--could you kindly comment on how you use extendable quills --either Y or Z on your Deckels--specifically-- quill movement would appear to be unverifiable given no connection to encoder/scales
 
Jay: I use the sensitive quills in conjunction with “semi” manual operations.
Using the control to accurately position and the quill to do operations like back spot facing, or to time the threading tool to an existing thread( repair)
Nice to set position on tools like grooving tools, where you can touch off (lightly) without leaving a cut or mark. Then set your datum.

I sometimes give the quill a bit of extension when running a program to allow a “ safety” if things look out, I can retract the quill to ease the depth.

Use it to “ feel” a reference surface if it’s not perfect, like touching off a boring tool. Select “S+0” (neutral) and turn the tool by hand while hand feeding to lightly touch.

I use it to power tap when I don’t want to program the feed, I just follow the tap on and out.

Nice for a quick hole ( drilling) easier than a program.
If running full auto, use the retracted stop to maintain the datum,

Sometimes usually running horizontal and boring ( do that quite a bit) there are times that the extra quill extension can get you where you need to be.

It’s a huge advantage when reboring the overarm support bushing.
Have used the quill to do honing on the mill.
Makes stroking the mandrel easier than doing it under power.

Works well when touching off on a blind hole. Extend quill, leave the lock off, move the tool forward till you see the quill move, retract and advance the axis, while feeling the free play on the quill, till it’s almost zero, then set your datum and lock the quill.
I am sure there are more, this just off the top.
Cheers Ross
 
Last edited:
Jay: I use the sensitive quills in conjunction with “semi” manual operations.
Using the control to accurately position and the quill to do operations like back spot facing, or to time the threading tool to an existing thread( repair)
Nice to set position on tools like grooving tools, where you can touch off (lightly) without leaving a cut or mark. Then set your datum.

I sometimes give the quill a bit of extension when running a program to allow a “ safety” if things look out, I can retract the quill to ease the depth.

Use it to “ feel” a reference surface if it’s not perfect, like touching off a boring tool. Select “S+0” (neutral) and turn the tool by hand while hand feeding to lightly touch.

I use it to power tap when I don’t want to program the feed, I just follow the tap on and out.

Nice for a quick hole ( drilling) easier than a program.
If running full auto, use the retracted stop to maintain the datum,

Sometimes usually running horizontal and boring ( do that quite a bit) there are times that the extra quill extension can get you where you need to be.

It’s a huge advantage when reboring the overarm support bushing.
Have used the quill to do honing on the mill.
Makes stroking the mandrel easier than doing it under power.

Works well when touching off on a blind hole. Extend quill, leave the lock off, move the tool forward till you see the quill move, retract and advance the axis, while feeling the free play on the quill, till it’s almost zero, then set your datum and lock the quill.
I am sure there are more, this just off the top.
Cheers Ross
very helpful explanation--I now understand the term sensitive quill--thx
 








 
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