Can a small tool grinder be used as a surface grinder?

[Miannini]

Fellow forum members,

I would like to get a small surface grinder for my hobby machining, which consists most of small jobs, such as 1-2-3 blocks, planning a small machine vise and such.
I found a tool grinder which appears to be in good condition, very compact footprint. It has vee-ways and uses a bench grinder-like 6” wheel, without balancing flanges and wheel covers. It has some tool grinding apparatus (a dividing attachment, two piece of centers, drill sharpening apparatus and a few smaller bits). It has rack and pinion movements in all 3 axis, with a 0,025 milimeter (1 thou) fine adjustment scale on the Z axis. Spindle is directly attached to 3 phase motor and can be tilted as a unit.

What should/will be the disadvantages of using a tool grinder for grinding flat surfaces? What are the differences between such machines?

I noticed that tool grinders add the tilting head assembly, the table can be transversed and the lack of a wheel guard). In usage, how do they differ?

 

[Richard King]

I had a friend who put a magnetic chuck on his tool and cutter grinder. I ran it once and it was terrible. No coolant but we used a squirt bottle filed with coolant (better than nothing). The spindle was weak and you could only take off tenths at a time. I told him to buy a used grinder as that TC machine was not made for surface grinding. He did and got a deal on a Kent. I see that machine does not have a wheel guard. Make or buy one, if the wheel explodes you could get seriously hurt. Buy a surface grinder with a coolant tank as grinding with-out coolant makes the part get hot and your finish sucks. Save yourself of a lot of time and cussing and forget about buying that one and 1/2 aceing .around.

 

[EmGo]

I found a tool grinder which appears to be in good condition, very compact footprint.

That thing is kind of cool. Looks home-made. The only problem I can see with using it for surface grinding is your cross handwheel is going to be a bitch to get at whole long-feed stroking.

p.s. Ignore the nay-sayer above .... 'nuff said.

 

[swarfless]

Sorry to say you will be disappointed by that machine. Using the motor as 'The Spindle' is sure to transmit any motor vibration to your job, & motor bearings are not generally set up like spindle bearings. On the other hand if you can get it for peanuts you'll learn a lot. Put a wheel guard on as advised, & change to a white wheel at the same time. And keep looking for a little bench surface grinder. Good luck.

 

[john.k]

Ive found a #2 Cincinnatti T&C grinder does have the bulk to make a decent light duty surface grinder..........the smaller ,spindly T&C grinders chatter all the time..........Bigger surface grinders are often a risky buy,and should be very carefully inspected for neglect ........as IMHO ,no machine is as generally likely suffering from neglect as a surface grinder.

 

[Miannini]

Sorry to say you will be disappointed by that machine. Using the motor as 'The Spindle' is sure to transmit any motor vibration to your job, & motor bearings are not generally set up like spindle bearings. On the other hand if you can get it for peanuts you'll learn a lot. Put a wheel guard on as advised, & change to a white wheel at the same time. And keep looking for a little bench surface grinder. Good luck.

That's was my feeling when testing the machine. I'll send a 1/3 offer. Too many issues to be dealt before I may (probably not) make a half decent job. Ways were running smooth and firm.

 

[Miannini]

Ive found a #2 Cincinnatti T&C grinder does have the bulk to make a decent light duty surface grinder..........the smaller ,spindly T&C grinders chatter all the time..........Bigger surface grinders are often a risky buy,and should be very carefully inspected for neglect ........as IMHO ,no machine is as generally likely suffering from neglect as a surface grinder.

The same day I was checking a surface grinder. All was very good until I removed the table to see the veeways. It's scratches were deeper than the oil groove. Oh, quickly, just put it back and thank the seller.

 

[john.k]

I know a big Snow surface grinder in daily use where the table is flat from edge to edge ,the 6ft long elec/mag chuck is a shiny surface in a field of grey ,and the bed ways a series of long grooves ,even though it was flat from the factory .......common comment .......how are you ever going to clean that ?......with a pick and shovel?

 

[CarbideBob]

Just say no.
Your use is not what this does.
I'd be more looking a 6x12 Harigs or Boyers for what you want to do on the cheap.
I also see manual 6x18 BS micromasters go for cheap as everyone wants hydraulic. That is a step up but your arm is gonna get tired.

 

[Miannini]

Yesterday I found a Kamenicek tool grinder (no mention "TOS" anywhere), that looks a lot like the TOS BN101 that the indian Liberty Machines shop has a video on youtube. I made a videocall with the seller and it appears to be in good condition: machine ways are smooth, not pitted/scratched/dented. It appears there's a teflon strip on the vee-ways. In the video, it seemed effortless to move the table. The price was better than the "strange" grinder above. This looks like a very robust machine, for a dead-cat price, in a very odd paint scheme.
It includes only one tool attachment, a dual axis vise.
This is a manual machine, no hydraulic table movements.
It seems like this one can handle surface grinding.

 

[michiganbuck]

Yes but...
I have a small KoLee Tc grinder with oil-scraped ways and a good condition high precision spindle. it can grind flat and true..But the calibration is not suitable for half thousands sizes.. As a +- .001 machine it could be used as a surface grinder. The same goes for a Cincinnati Tc grinder. I used a Cincinnati Tc grinder that had the surface grinder double bearing spindle, and it was used as a surface grinder to grind 18" broach bar cutters flat to a half thow size..It was a bugger to hold a half thow on that machine.
Yes, we did hold tenths with Cincy #2s, but it was by bumping the handle and counting sparks..not going by the dial numbers.
*One is much better off with a brand-name machine designed to be a surface grinder.

 

[Richard King]

You seem to have your mind set to buy a TC grinder to use as a surface grinder. Non of us Journeymen say it will work right. You can't grind accurately with-out coolant. .

 

[CarbideBob]

Why the lure of a tool and cutter grinder to do surface grinder work?
Yes they have a side to side and in/out like surface grinder bit the up/down axis is way different in design.
Which axis controls size on a surface grinder?
On the flip side manual surface grinders can do tool and cutter style work with attachments if all you have but they are maybe not so great at this task.
If you really want to and it the only machine available you can do surface grinding on a B-port. BTDT.
Using a very old LeBlond tool and cutter grinder as a OD grinder for bearing fits on a line bar....Fun stuff.
Or good size cup wheel mounted in a VMC because you do not have a Blanchard. Done that also.
Making it work and being easy to use are two different things.
Yes if you have experience you can make just about anything work.

“We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, with so little, for so long, we are now qualified to do anything, with nothing.”​

This showed up in a hand drawn piece of cardboard in my shop on the wall. Some thought I as the boss would be upset.
To me this is the machinist mantra. I had it framed.

 

[eKretz]

Nothing to add to what the others have said but: "yup."

 

[F35Machinist]

Why don't you just pick up this nice free surface grinder:

Free Chevallier FSG-2A618 Surface Grinder

I am trying to clear out some room in my shop and want to get rid of my surface grinder. I used it mostly for necking down tools and I bought a smaller machine to do that for me. It comes with one arbor and I'll throw in the diamond wheel too. Brand: Chevallier Model: FSG-2A618 Location...

www.practicalmachinist.com

 

[EmGo]

Why don't you just pick up this nice free surface grinder:

Because he's in Brazil, which is the part y'all missed. Maybe they have a lot of machine tools there but doesn't seem like it, which is why the t&c idea doesn't seem so bad to me. Out in the desert, even a cup of muddy water with ants is better than nothing, maybe ?

 

[Miannini]

Got the idea: in short, surface grinders have a different headstock with much finer movements that a TC, which is mostly where the superior precision levels from grinding over traditional turning/milling (along with the abrasive cutting ability to remove less material per pass).

Sorry for the mess: I updated my profile to show my location: Brazil. Here we are always trying to be "creative" (euphemism for impromptu).
Unfortunately the industry here has died since the '90s globalization trend and in the '00 when the chinese flooded our market with cheap products. Since then, iindustrial machinery is getting harder to find, more expensive and most of our assets are from the '60/'70s. All I can find are those pieces of trash. The place I found that TC is a industrial scrapyard. Machines listed on sites/auctions for long end up there. It would be beautful to get a used swiss machine directly from Bienne, if shipping and taxes (100%) didn't triple or more their price. Oh, and we use to have "nationalized" machines that were beautifully (but no longer) made. Now their conditions turned the to basically metal slags to be melted on a recycling plant. Here TC appears in much better condition and lower prices than surface grinders machines.

TC will probably be unadequate for surface grinder, but it might be more usefull than my pedestal grinder (which I hardly use - prefer the belt sander). I have coolant system from the lathe which I can take apart (never used it because it makes a big mess) so that I can do some "high level gambiarra" (impromptu) to flat one or other surface on it to show my proud brazilian-creative side! :-)

My search for a good condition surface grinder continues!

Thanks for your answers and patience!

*ps: "gambiarra" hack question: if one add a mechanism for fine adjusting the columm height, then this TC = SG? It's headstock seem pretty heavy duty/heavy weight.

 

[john.k]

The machine pictured is a close copy of a #2 Cincinnatti.

 

[Miannini]

Because he's in Brazil, which is the part y'all missed. Maybe they have a lot of machine tools there but doesn't seem like it, which is why the t&c idea doesn't seem so bad to me. Out in the desert, even a cup of muddy water with ants is better than nothing, maybe ?

Bravo!

 

[Miannini]

Woods Creek Workshop channel in Youtube has a series of videos about a Cincinnati #2 he's rebuilding.
Lots of information about this similar machine (twins or at least siblings) there: