Can I modify channeling rib on a steel magazine?

[idkfa]

Hello everyone, first post here.

Here’s the issue:

1. S&W M&P 2.0 10mm released a year ago drops mags under certain conditions.
2. I and others traced it to poor magazine design:
   The channeling rib on the mag is too short and allows the rounds to press against the mag catch (see Figure 1 below).
3. S&W are mum on the issue and blame everyone but themselves.

As a POC, I tried sticking a piece of a credit card (see Figure 2 below) inside the mag at the mag catch window level, and it works like a charm (minus the feeding issues).
It would appear that if I could somehow extend the channeling rib by 1/4" and make a ~3/64" indent into the mag, it might just solve the problem.
Hence the question: is it possible to deepen/extend a channeling rib on a steel magazine (see Figure 3)?

Based on my findings, this is probably something like a 1010 CRS or similar steel, which can be forged at around 1000-1200C.
I thought I could maybe get a small butane torch, heat up that spot, and press a file/rod/bolt/whatever against it to deepen the rib.
Theoretically, is that something that might work or not?

Figure 1 Figure 2 Figure 3

 

[Rob F.]

I would make a steel die that is the shape you want that slides in from the bottom. Press or hammer the metal to the new shape, may or may not need to be annealed. That is forming, not forging.
Whatever plating or coating on it probably will not survive, especially if you heat it.

 

[idkfa]

I would make a steel die that is the shape you want that slides in from the bottom. Press or hammer the metal to the new shape, may or may not need to be annealed. That is forming, not forging.

Thanks! Can you recommend where to get metal to manufacture such a die and/or what to look for?

 

[Rob F.]

Almost any chunk of any type metal that is big enough will work, steel would be best, especially if you want to do more than one.
You do know this is a forum of metal work professionals and by joining you are kind of expected to be the same. Dont say that you do not know where to get a piece of metal.... it makes you look ... un professional.

 

[memphisjed]

Build up with bronze braze and whittle into shape. Re-forming set edges is not easy, reforming when you have to use spring stakes to get to other side is, luck and voodoo and skill stewed with eye of newts.

 

[moonlight machine]

Thanks! Can you recommend where to get metal to manufacture such a die and/or what to look for?

Seems like if you don't even know where to buy the metal you don't have the knowledge, skill, or access to machinery to do the job.

 

[idkfa]

Almost any chunk of any type metal that is big enough will work, steel would be best, especially if you want to do more than one.
You do know this is a forum of metal work professionals and by joining you are kind of expected to be the same. Dont say that you do not know where to get a piece of metal.... it makes you look ... un professional.

Advice is much appreciated.
I never said I was a professional, and I am not. I also don't care how I look.

 

[idkfa]

Seems like if you don't even know where to buy the metal you don't have the knowledge, skill, or access to machinery to do the job.

That is correct, I do not. Smith and Wesson do, but they don't care about this situation. And my mags are dropping, so it's my problem.
Also, that is not the question I asked.

 

[idkfa]

Build up with bronze braze and whittle into shape. Re-forming set edges is not easy, reforming when you have to use spring stakes to get to other side is, luck and voodoo and skill stewed with eye of newts.

Thanks!

 

[Rob F.]

Advice is much appreciated.
I never said I was a professional, and I am not. I also don't care how I look.

Sorry if my post came across as you HAD to be a professional here, you do not and many here are not. But you do need to act like one to be welcome.

 

[idkfa]

Sorry if my post came across as you HAD to be a professional here, you do not and many here are not. But you do need to act like one to be welome.

Sorry, act? Professional conduct implies mutual courtesy and lack of improper language or deliberate offense.
Acting like professional is something new to me. Is this an 8th grade theater club?
It is the first time that I ever heard on any forum that being welcome means acting like a professional, and the latter, in turn, means not asking questions for which you might not have answers.
Have I ever made a die? No. Do I suspect that maybe, just maybe there might be a particular place online or otherwise where all of the experienced professionals buy metal for dies? Yes, yes, I do.
If asking where to procure metal for a specific application makes me look like I'm not acting like a professional, so be it. I am not a professional -- and neither I am an actor.
If I'm not welcome here for that -- that's just fine by me, and I shall leave.

 

[BoxcarPete]

Sorry, act? Professional conduct implies mutual courtesy and lack of improper language or deliberate offense.
Acting like professional is something new to me. Is this an 8th grade theater club?
It is the first time that I ever heard on any forum that being welcome means acting like a professional, and the latter, in turn, means not asking questions for which you might not have answers.
Have I ever made a die? No. Do I suspect that maybe, just maybe there might be a particular place online or otherwise where all of the experienced professionals buy metal for dies? Yes, yes, I do.
If asking where to procure metal for a specific application makes me look like I'm not acting like a professional, so be it. I am not a professional -- and neither I am an actor.
If I'm not welcome here for that -- that's just fine by me, and I shall leave.

Take a deep breath. Nobody's suggesting that you aren't a professional person. What everyone seems to think (myself included) is that you may lack the skill needed for this job. It's no easy task to get sheet metal to do what you want to the degree required here.

Are new, corrected mags available? That's what I'd do.

In addition, you might fiddle around with these, knowing they're junk and likely to stay that way after you mess them up further. If you can salvage them, pat yourself on the back and flip your haters the bird, you've earned it.

 

[idkfa]

Take a deep breath. Nobody's suggesting that you aren't a professional person. What everyone seems to think (myself included) is that you may lack the skill needed for this job. It's no easy task to get sheet metal to do what you want to the degree required here.

Are new, corrected mags available? That's what I'd do.

In addition, you might fiddle around with these, knowing they're junk and likely to stay that way after you mess them up further. If you can salvage them, pat yourself on the back and flip your haters the bird, you've earned it.

I appreciate the concern and I absolutely realize that this whole endeavor may be a failure. This is precisely why I am asking for an expert opinion and a sanity check.
No, new mags are not available as Smith and Wesson have not acknowledged the problem exists. Consequently, they most likely won't be available, at least within foreseeable future.
Based on others' experience, S&W will absolutely take the gun for a warranty service, polish the ramp, test fire, not find any issues, and, optionally, lecture the owner on not using [insert ammo type] because it is "not SAAMI spec" (it is).
Hence, effectively, this is a matter of making a non-working gun work, and I am perfectly okay with ruining these mags with my experiments.

 

[BoxcarPete]

I appreciate the concern and I absolutely realize that this whole endeavor may be a failure. This is precisely why I am asking for an expert opinion and a sanity check.
No, new mags are not available as Smith and Wesson have not acknowledged the problem exists. Consequently, they most likely won't be available, at least within foreseeable future.
Based on others' experience, S&W will absolutely take the gun for a warranty service, polish the ramp, test fire, not find any issues, and, optionally, lecture the owner on not using [insert ammo type] because it is "not SAAMI spec" (it is).
Hence, effectively, this is a matter of making a non-working gun work, and I am perfectly okay with ruining these mags with my experiments.

Right there with you now.

If I were trying this, I would match the groove with a punch, try to match the current interior profile with a die, and use a press to squeeze them together. Then I'd move the die side lower and do it again until I had the shape I wanted. Does that sound like a method you could do with the tools you have? I'd avoid hammering on it if I could.

 

[idkfa]

Right there with you now.

If I were trying this, I would match the groove with a punch, try to match the current interior profile with a die, and use a press to squeeze them together. Then I'd move the die side lower and do it again until I had the shape I wanted. Does that sound like a method you could do with the tools you have? I'd avoid hammering on it if I could.

Thanks for the detailed recommendation!
Yeah, I think I can manage that. Should the area be annealed or is cold pressing better and (if possible) why?

 

[BoxcarPete]

Thanks for the detailed recommendation!
Yeah, I think I can manage that. Should the area be annealed or is cold pressing better and (if possible) why?

On that matter, I recommend a process called "trial and error."

In a little more detail, if you can get the rib extended a little further without annealing you should be OK. Anneal if you have to.

 

[idkfa]

On that matter, I recommend a process called "trial and error."

In a little more detail, if you can get the rib extended a little further without annealing you should be OK. Anneal if you have to.

Many thanks!

 

[standardparts]

Did an online search "S&W M&P 2.0 10mm magazine issues" and it seems to be a pretty common issue. Quite a number of threads discuss it, and oddly enough non of the threads seem to mention a real solution and speculation on the cause varies.
But one thread appears to offer a fix/workaround:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SmithAndWesson/comments/10zazeo
So moving to a comment that strays from fixing the mag.... I guess extending the rib or whatever on the mag is one solution but having owned a couple of real dog firearms over the years and the fact that mags dropping out unexpectedly present a safety issue along with lack of reliability if the firearm is intended for self defense I'd say bye-bye to that firearm.

 

[idkfa]

Did an online search "S&W M&P 2.0 10mm magazine issues" and it seems to be a pretty common issue. Quite a number of threads discuss it, and oddly enough non of the threads seem to mention a real solution and speculation on the cause varies.
But one thread appears to offer a fix/workaround:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SmithAndWesson/comments/10zazeo
So moving to a comment that strays from fixing the mag.... I guess extending the rib or whatever on the mag is one solution but having owned a couple of real dog firearms over the years and the fact that mags dropping out unexpectedly present a safety issue along with lack of reliability if the firearm is intended for self defense I'd say bye-bye to that firearm.

Yup, I am well aware of this and, I believe, at this point just about all other threads/posts/comments/videos about this issue.
The speculation on the cause varies because nobody else bothered to conduct a thorough enough investigation and because it is a complex issue.
The long and short of it is this:

• These drops are a result of the bullets pressing on the magazine catch under a recoil jolt -- so there are 2 factors.
• In general, bigger bullets and spicier ammo result in drops more frequently and more repeatably.
  Large hardcast bullets can fit against the mag catch window like a finger in a glove, and press against the mag catch -- but not enough to drop the mag when it's still. Once you fire the gun, then the jolt will rattle the frame sufficiently to eject the mag.
• In turn, this situation appears to be a product of the magazine catch and/or magazine shell sized/formed improperly for a certain range of 10mm bullet shapes and sizes.
• This may be due to a design flaw or a manufacturing problem or both.

dropping out unexpectedly

That's not quite correct. After 7 range sessions, 56 individual experiments, 355 rounds of 12 different types of ammo with bullets varying in weight from 100 to 200 grains and speed from 1200 to 1850 fps, I know exactly when to expect a mag drop at this point.
I can say that I probably know this gun better than the people who designed it -- since they clearly have not made an effort to evaluate it in such a manner.
If anyone from S&W wants to prove me wrong, I'd welcome the challenge -- but they shoved their collective tongue where the light doesn't shine and keep polishing feed ramps.

I'd say bye-bye to that firearm

I can't in good conscience sell it to an unsuspecting buyer, I know of only one person who was able to return his to S&W after 2 returns, multiple written communications, and an open letter to the CEO (!), and to scrap it seems a bit wasteful. This is pretty much why I'm talking to all y'all here.

 

[standardparts]

Yup, I am well aware of this and, I believe, at this point just about all other threads/posts/comments/videos about this issue.
The speculation on the cause varies because nobody else bothered to conduct a thorough enough investigation and because it is a complex issue.
The long and short of it is this:

• These drops are a result of the bullets pressing on the magazine catch under a recoil jolt -- so there are 2 factors.
• In general, bigger bullets and spicier ammo result in drops more frequently and more repeatably.
  Large hardcast bullets can fit against the mag catch window like a finger in a glove, and press against the mag catch -- but not enough to drop the mag when it's still. Once you fire the gun, then the jolt will rattle the frame sufficiently to eject the mag.
• In turn, this situation appears to be a product of the magazine catch and/or magazine shell sized/formed improperly for a certain range of 10mm bullet shapes and sizes.
• This may be due to a design flaw or a manufacturing problem or both.

That's not quite correct. After 7 range sessions, 56 individual experiments, 355 rounds of 12 different types of ammo with bullets varying in weight from 100 to 200 grains and speed from 1200 to 1850 fps, I know exactly when to expect a mag drop at this point.
I can say that I probably know this gun better than the people who designed it -- since they clearly have not made an effort to evaluate it in such a manner.
If anyone from S&W wants to prove me wrong, I'd welcome the challenge -- but they shoved their collective tongue where the light doesn't shine and keep polishing feed ramps.

I can't in good conscience sell it to an unsuspecting buyer, I know of only one person who was able to return his to S&W after 2 returns, multiple written communications, and an open letter to the CEO (!), and to scrap it seems a bit wasteful. This is pretty much why I'm talking to all y'all here.

I was not challenging your experience...did a search to see simply to see how much a problem it is and what the general consensus is. The 'net can be a wealth of info---most times.

As far as S&W goes...no doubt any previous record of acknowledging and engaging in blanket warranty policy or even a recall is likely counter to legal advice regarding liability and service reps are advised to not say a damn thing.

But...back to topic...depending on how many of that particular handgun is out there it's surprising one of the mag companies (at least one of the good mag companies) is not producing an "enhanced" mag.