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Can I use VFD + Idler Motor = 3ph Bus?

The thing about using one set of windings as
the motor and the other set as generator sounds
interesting. What, pray tell, would be the
difference between this and a transformer
(other than the rotating core, obviously)?
I'll be the first to admit that I have a
lot to learn, but it sure seems reasonable.
Can dual-winding motors be safely operated
as a motor on one set of windings?
And if so, how much should it be de-rated?

<als>
 
Thanks JL Sargent. Your comments just made it clear why my controls give no problems. I do not have a neutral so I never refernce to it. All my machine tool controls have 230 v to 115 v control transformers and all measure 115 to 120 volts output. I think a person would have problems trying to reference to neutral. I just never imagined anyone would try this as I am accustomed to using 3 phase and never having a neutral so I wired all my tools as if they were connected to real 3 phase. I have never measured any of my phases to neutral as it never had any value.
 
I just never imagined anyone would try this as I am accustomed to using 3 phase and never having a neutral
Just some FYI, Alot, if not all, newer 220v appliances these days have and reference the neutral. Makes alot of sense too if you think about it. These "Laundry Centers" as their called, washer and dryer in one, uses the 220v for the dryer and the neutral to one hot leg for the washer. Why pay for a transformer when you already have the neutral? Check out the stove/dryer plugs at Home Depot, bunch of em got neutrals. Wish I had pulled a neutral for all my 3phase or 220v single phase stuff w/110 control. The transformers are usually bulky and a pain when wiring a new machine with a smaller control box. ;)
 
To fill in the 'experimental evidence' void a bit, I took a 240/480v 7.5hp 3-phase motor, wired up the phases in series (Y-arrangement, for 480v) and put 240v AC across just ONE SET of windings.

My hope was to see 480v 3-phase on the remaining set, and as I suspected, I got 480v 3-phase AC.

...at about 210 milliampres.

Don't ask me why- I don't know. I checked coil phasing, everything was okay. I didn't have any other motors to try this on, and I ran out of tinker-time.

It is a neat idea, but didn't yield what I'd hoped to get.
 
"My hope was to see 480v 3-phase on the remaining set, and as I suspected, I got 480v 3-phase AC.

"...at about 210 milliampres.

"Don't ask me why- I don't know. I checked coil phasing, everything was okay. I didn't have any other motors to try this on, and I ran out of tinker-time."

As I stated, or strongly implied on 6/18, an induction machine, connected as described, cannot be expected to deliver power, which is a measure of work.


"It is a neat idea, but didn't yield what I'd hoped to get."

It's not possible in an induction machine, for such a machine can only develop a potential, which is a measure of the transformation ratio of the machine's windings, as you discovered.

Now, if the machine was a synchronous machine, and not an induction machine, then the combination of the wound rotor and its excitation plus the stator would indeed produce both a potential, as a function of the ratio of the stator's windings, plus a significant current, as a function of the synchronous machine's excitation, and it would, thereby, produce power, and, hence, work.
 
Peterh: You are throwing terms around as if they were pronouncements from GOD. You are not giving any REASON why the arrangement is not working as a transformer with a rotating core element providing some resonant filtering action at the operating frequency.
The goal here is to come up with an economical way to filter the output of the VFD inverter, which is providing all the power on the 3 phase bus, and isolate it from transient voltage and current spikes caused by switching motor loads on and off which could damage the outputs of the VFD. The VFD capacity is much larger than the motors driven from the output bus.
 
"You are throwing terms around as if they were pronouncements from GOD."

I'm trying to give a technical description of the physical behavior of the devices involved.

I guess I've been "pushing a rope", here. A fruitless act, it seems.

I'm done. Goodbye.
 
Peter sure doesn't try to pose as God, but his answers were actually a bit more in-depth than you may have understood. Peter's been around a while, and he knows the principles in-out-through.

What he's saying, is that since the action of the induction motor's fluxes are optimized to travel from electric to mechanical, that the only EMF that really exists, is that whose phase relationship counters that in the rotating windings. I think the reality of the situation is that, when the AC induction motor is running unloaded, it's armature speed is synchronous to that of the incoming AC line. Under that scenario, the current flow becomes a totally reactive load 90-degrees out-of-phase with the driving field's phase. Essentially, the armature's current is zero... the only time the armature's current builds to any respectable level, is when SLIP occurs, in which event, armature current rises dramatically because the resonance is now lost... XL doesn't equal XC.

I think what Peter's driving at, is that since there's no armature current, there'll be no sufficient field to cross the remaining windings and generate any useful current.

This would explain why MY experiment (using a 3-phase motor driven at 240, trying to get 480) yielded a little voltage, but no current- the motor was at resonance, so the only current flow I could get, was that which was attributable to loss from armature inefficiency and slip.

If that's the case, I SHOULD be able to re-conduct the experiment, and place some sort of a brake on the armature, and as I load the motor a tad, I should see available current come up a smidgen, but if it's an efficient motor, probably not much... If my guess is correct, I could probably solve for XL assuming a 60hz design, then recalculate for XL at 56hz, and use that as a basis (with Ohm's Law) to estimate the difference in current. Just from general RF and railroad drive experience, my guess is that the result would still be 'not much'.

Peter?
 
By the way- the VFD you're planning on using...

One of the things the VFD does, in order to accomplish what it does... is assume some basic characteristics of the motor which it's driving. Once set, the VFD does NOT like to see changes in those characteristics.

You can start a motor on the VFD... idler or whatever... but when you power up another motor, all the parameters change, and the VFD does NOT know how to cope with that change. To make matters worse, the change in load on ONE motor will cause very strange things to happen to the total reactance, which could cause some serious damage to your VFD.

The better plan, as brought up in other threads, would be to sequentially start additional idler motors with an RPC.
 
Peters 4000+ posts have for the most part been highly educational for me and most others. If you read previous posts with the search function he has answered more unanswered questions here than any other by a long shot. So, don't be so quick to judge!

By the way, I always look up any terms found here or else where that I'm not familiar with. By doing that I figure out what someone is saying and can add those new words to my vocabulary as well.
 
Dave, yes, that's more of the kind of answer I was looking for, in fact, the small amount of slip that does exist may actually be blocking the magnetic flux path through the rotor, impeding transformer action. The links I came up with on the google search are actually very educational and helpful.
I just don't see any point in "it can't be done" unless it's to goad someone like me to try to prove you wrong...
"What's the Point", or " Why add expense and compexity to a working design", maybe.
Old 3 phase motors are cheap and available, but I don't think 3 phase resonant filtering transformers are very available, OR cheap. I'd like to find a way to turn an old 3 phase motor into one. The same capacitor arrangement that allows an induction motor to work as a self excited generator might be useful for what I'm trying to do. VFD's are also becoming available and inexpensive on the surplus market, I'm seeing 5hp units go for $75. They can be a PITA to hook up and program though. Plus, you have to rewire each machine.
 
"I think the reality of the situation is that, when the AC induction motor is running unloaded, it's armature speed is synchronous to that of the incoming AC line. Under that scenario, the current flow becomes a totally reactive load 90-degrees out-of-phase with the driving field's phase. Essentially, the armature's current is zero... the only time the armature's current builds to any respectable level, is when SLIP occurs, in which event, armature current rises dramatically because the resonance is now lost... XL doesn't equal XC."

I'll put this another, possibly simpler way.

An ac power system cannot transmit any power without there being at least some phase shift.

For, at 0 degrees phase shift, there can be no power transferred, while at 90 degrees phase shift, the power transferred is maximized.

However, every ac system everywhere must meet a stability criteria, which is perhaps best summed up in the so-called "equal area criteria", heavily paraphrased thusly:

If the area under the curve on the leading side is less than the area under the curve on the lagging side, then the system is unconditionally stable.

If the area under the curve on the leading side is equal to the area under the curve on the lagging side, then the system is conditionally stable.

However, if the area under the curve on the leading side is greater than the area under the curve on the lagging side, then the system is unconditionally unstable.

What this is saying is if you operate synchronous ac machines below 90 degrees, you will transmit power; but should you operate these machines above 90 degrees, some generators will become motors, and you will more than likely break their shafts.

At the electric utility where I was an EE more than thirty years ago, we actually had this happen. Twice!

General Electric couldn't explain this phenomenon, and our operating people couldn't either.

The group of which I was a part got involved and we developed mathematical models of the system, and of the turbine-generator, and we isolated the problem to a resonance between the "series compensated" [ * ] transmission line, which was very long, and ultra-high voltage, and the turbine-generator's shaft.

For, when the transmission line became cold enough, hence its resistance became low enough, the series capacitors, combined with the self-impedance of the T-G could cause the T-G to become a motor, and instead of converting 750 MW of mechanical power from the turbine into 750 MW of electrical power onto the line, a tremendous amount of electric power from the system, through the line, would flow into the T-G, and the excess mechanical power, having no where to go, was forced into the T-G's shaft, causing it to break.

That's what can happen if the "equal area criteria" is violated ... 1 million horses [ ** ] pulled apart that turbine-generator. Twice.

Under conditions of the second warrantee settlement with G-E, we agreed not to operate this line using "series compensation", under specified very cold weather conditions.

I guess the moral of this story, and, indeed, this thread, is when you operate ac power systems on the "bleeding edge", perhaps something, or someone is going to bleed.

I prefer not to bleed, so I exited the discussion.


[ * ] Here is a case where capacitors are in series with the line. The intended purpose is to compensate (that is, eliminate), to the greatest degree possible, the effects of the inductance of the line. However, by the Law of Unintended Consequences, if you don't know what you are doing, you can overcompensate, thereby creating a potentially unstable condition.

[ ** ] The actual value is more like 1,005,326 HP, all of this being loosed into the T-G's shaft, thereby over stressing it, and ultimately breaking it. This causes a big, very expensive KABOOM!
 
Ok, forget the motor/generator/rotating core/squirrel cage/rotor slip/flywheel thing entirely for a moment. If I was to cut off the conductive shunts on the ends of the rotor, I would for all intents have turned the motor into a transformer, right? There would be a closed flux path through cowound coils passing through an essentially stationary laminated rotor. If I cut flats on the rotor, or cut out squirrel cage bars at 120 degrees appart, the rotor should turn sychronously with the stator fields, yes?
(I don't really want to wreck a perfectly good 10hp motor, I suppose I could rig a pony motor to drive the rotor sychronously.)

I'll play around with this a bit on a test bench. I have a motor I can set up to have both sets of windings parallel but completely seperate electrically.

The first law of unintended consequences: There will be some!
 
"If I cut flats on the rotor, or cut out squirrel cage bars at 120 degrees appart, the rotor should turn sychronously with the stator fields, yes?"

Let's say you eliminated the transformer action of the shorted turns in the squirrel cage rotor, and made the rotor one solid, homogeneous mass.

The machine would become a hysteresis-synchronous machine, and it would, indeed, operate at synchronous speed, but with almost no starting torque, and not too much breakdown torque.

Obviously, a lot of research has been put into optimizing induction machines, as these have the highest price-performance.

But, don't expect such a highly optimized machine to do something it isn't intended to do.

The fact that these usually work so well as idlers in RPC systems is frosting on the cake.

Yet another unintended consequence.
 
Yes, at this point, though, I'm just wanting to use the motor windings as a transformer, or with caps as a filter. I don't care about pulling or pushing mechanical power from the thing...
If someone could point me to a source of cheap, available 5-10 kva 3 phase transformers, I could care less about motors in this application.
 
Peter- that explanation was not only educational, I found it to be hilarious... entertainment that only a genuine electro-techno-geek would understand...

Along the same line of bleeding-edge, I was teaching a class on one particular passenger train, on the subject of pressure relief testing and doing recertification of the main and auxiliary air reservoirs. I was explaining the regular pressure testing procedures, and those used at long-term intervals, and a student asked about how the actual design-proof testing (destructive) was done... that is... driving the reservoirs to burst pressure, to determine validity of design and construction.

And one overly-bright student asked... "Water? That's preposterous- you're pressure-testing it with water, when it'll be carrying AIR?"

It took me a long time to overcome my misgivings about the future of this particular student...
 








 
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