Carriage ELSR assembly

[DaveE907]

Recently assembled the carriage components that position the ELSR control rod. The first photo shows all the parts laid out that assemble into the unit attached to the bottom of the apron through which the control rod passes. It's a simple assembly but there are two timing matters to address during assembly.

The first is the knob (EE 3809) should point up at mid travel of the movable bar (EE 3804) at the rear of the unit. This isn't critical to operation, it's an appearance matter.

The second is the timing of the double sector (EE 3592) to the partial pinion at the bottom which rotates the control rod passing thorough it (I believe it's EE 3811, my print isn't very clear). The double sector is positioned so the portion with five full teeth are at the top and the portion with four full teeth engage the partial pinion. The longer boss on the double sector should be towards the tailstock end of the lathe. When timed correctly the keyway which drives the control rod will be at the bottom and the double sector will be positioned vertically as I've tried to depict in the second photograph. The, key, keyed washers, felt and snap ring were not installed here to help clarify the photo.

This is also how the components should be positioned when the control lever on the apron is in the "off" position when attaching the assembly to the bottom of the apron.

The third photo shows the control lever components that install to the apron casting. It's simple and should be positioned as noted above after assembly into the apron prior to attaching the lower ELSR unit.

One thing apparent when examining these components is Monarch carefully designed and provided lubrication paths for grease supplied through the Zerk fitting on the right end of the unit. It's an easily overlooked lube point but please don't. All lube for the carriage ELSR comes from that fitting, the oil in the apron doesn't service this unit.

The forth photo shows the original ratchet (EE 3597) and the duplicate I made. The original was chipped and felt awful when using the control lever. The new one has case hardened teeth on a tough 1045 core.

The fifth photo shows the original lever (EE 3599) and my replacement made of 303 stainless steel. This machine has remarkably little wear (less than 0.0005 on the ways for instance) but it has corrosion problems on some exterior parts. It's getting all new levers and knobs.

 

[rimcanyon]

Nice pictures. These answer lots of questions that always come up about the elsr.

How much play do you have in the completed assembly? I need to pull mine apart, there is about 1" of slop in the motion of the control lever. I am assuming it must be in the key/keyway fit, nothing else is adjustable or likely to wear.

-Dave

 

[daryl bane]

The rod with keyway is a standard size item, available from Mcmaster in stainless steel. Make a new key to fit and you will cure the slop. The keyed feed rod is also available from Mcmaster in stainless also

 

[rke[pler]

The forth photo shows the original ratchet (EE 3597) and the duplicate I made. The original was chipped and felt awful when using the control lever. The new one has case hardened teeth on a tough 1045 core.

Nice work. Did you draw up the ratchet? If so I'd like a copy of the drawing, it'd make it easier to make a new one for my lathe. I've been meaking to do so for a while, maybe having it drawn up would get me started.

Other Dave - check the keyway in the bar and the key inside the apron ELSR housing. I had to make a replacement as the key was worn down quite a ways. Even with new keys and all there's still more slop than I like.

 

[rimcanyon]

Even with new keys and all there's still more slop than I like.

Russ & Daryl, thats why I asked. I'd really like to know how much play at the handle end a new 10EE had. As well as how much I can expect to elimate with a new key.

-Dave

 

[donie]

All those parts and the clearance needed for it all to work, the slop is considerable. The most important thing is for the spindle control lever to lock into neutral in operation. Otherwise a hazard condition if the carriage is backed away and the lever falls into spindle forward.

 

[220swift]

Dave
Very nice work. Your laying out the parts in order is sure to be a source of info.

Very nice job on reproducing the lever. Did you hand turn the knob? The polish job is superb, you can see yourself in it well enough to see you never used a flash to take the high quality pictures.

Hal

 

[daryl bane]

I found with a new rod and key, the action is very nice, almost crisp, not much slop at all. I cut the key oversize then lapped it for a perfect fit. Even though it was a very well used machine, the parts other that the key and rod, were in excellent condition.

 

[DaveE907]

Dave, there's little play or slop at the handle, much less than 0.1 inch when the plunger engages with the rachet (or is it a detent?). This machine has no measureable wear anywhere in the ELSR: gears, key or keyway. The parts look new. The movement of the whole assembly has no annoying slop and is very smooth. It's only problems were chipped teeth on the ratchet and a loose fit of the handle within the bore of the casting it slides in. Those were cured by the new pieces shown.

Donie is right, it's absolutely a safety issue if the control lever is not positively locked in the "off" or stop position, it was another reason for the new ratchet. The original was badly chipped and not positive.

Russ, FWIW my hand drawn shop sketch of the ratchet is attached. My CB dia is larger than the original as I didn't care to use a good #10 SHCS CB on the material and the clearance hole Monarch used doesn't fit a standard pilot on that size CB either. I just used a flat ended end mill to do the CB. The vee slots were made with a two flute end mill ground to a 90 degree point.

Hal, thanks for noticing the parts layout. Searching this forum didn't turn up similar information so thought it might be useful to someone in the future.

The knob was hand turned at .010 in. increments (118 steps for this shape) over the contoured portion. Calculated the crossfed numbers for each position and stepped along the part. Takes me about 20 minutes to turn the ball end. Polishing it is quick and easy with a 1x42 in. belt sander. I spin the part with a 3600 RPM drill motor and work the part on an unsupported (thus flexible) portion of the belt. Start with 180 and take to 320 grit belt (finest I have) then finish polish at 3600 RPM through 600 grit followed by metal polish. The entire polish process takes less than 10 minutes.

I attached a photo of the turning process for those not familiar with this old timer method. Sorry about the photo quality, didn't intend to send this photo out. The black at the bottom is the camera strap.

 

[Knguyen]

What is the process involved with the calculation of cutting of the contour? It is fantastic. Metalworking at its best. I am looking forward to seeing the complete 10EE. Are you doing the work? ( way grinding, scraping, drive restoration etc) Thanks for posting.
Khanh

 

[rimcanyon]

there's little play or slop at the handle, much less than 0.1 inch when the plunger engages with the rachet

Dave, what I meant by play/slop at the handle is how much free play is there at the handle between the points where the ELSR rod turns one way and the other. On my machine its about 1", even though I can lock the handle into the center position and it has very little play at that point.

BTW, on mine, the tit was broken off the end of the lever, I had to make a new one. Mine has a second lever up at the headstock end of the ELSR rod. Was that standard?

-Dave

 

[220swift]

rimcanyon

I measured my ELSR handle travel at just under 4" from the very bottom position to the top position. I misread what you were asking.

Dave. I think the 2nd handles were on the earlier 10EE units, say pre 60's units. Just a guess. In a 70's catalog there isn't a second handle shown.

Hal

 

[Toms Wheels]

My 1960 Wiad has the second handle, rarely ever use it.

 

[rimcanyon]

I measured my ELSR handle travel at just under 4" from the very bottom position to the top position. I misread what you were asking.

Thats still not what I was asking ;<)

On mine, I have 1" of slop. If I move the lever up until the ELSR rod just starts to turn, then downwards until it just starts to turn the opposite way, there is 1" of play.

 

[wrench]

Nicely done, Dave... And I echo the same compliments on the photos plus their presentation. What are you using for paint?

[on edit] I went back and checked on some of your old posts... I found "two part polyurethane primer-surfacer". I've used that stuff too... It is harder than nails when done (chips if not careful), but you are right about the need to be careful with a respirator. I've used a supplied air setup too, although you still need to be wary of your exposed mucous membranes (i.e. eyes or even skin absorption)

Alan

 

[DaveE907]

Dave, when I trial fit things together IIRC there may have been 0.1 in. slop with how you've defined it. All of the components are as new, no wear anywhere. The apron is off and apart now so can't directly measure it for you right now. This 1952 MG machine has the handle on the control rod at the headstock end. I've never used it and may leave it off to reduce the number of handles to make. I also made new "tit" (pawl?) but didn't point that out earlier.

Knguyen, I'm doing all the work but this machine doesn't require way grinding, scraping or drive restoration. It wasn't used heavily or for production and spent a good portion of its life in storage. Somewhere it was exposed to moisture so it's main problems were caused by that. Apparently some users weren't very careful either as the ELSR ratchet demonstrates. Its basic bones are in good shape but I spent several years kissing frogs before locating and choosing this one.

The calculations are done once the part contour is described by an equation. For circular arcs R**2 = X**2 + Y**2. Here one knows R and X (carriage position) so solve for Y. This part has both convex and concave curvatures but the method works the same. A spreadsheet is a quick way to do the number crunching and print out a table. I express the numbers in direct crossfeed dial and carriage movement numbers to avoid confusion while cranking the handles. It's sort of caveman NC but can be useful when one doesn't have CNC available. The steps can be as big or as small as you choose to arrive at the degree of smoothness one desires. It can produce any body of revolution OD or ID.

BTW the same concept can produce curves with a mill, shaper or planer. For instance, before NC and then CNC sometimes airfoil sections for wind tunnel models were made with this method. Used to do some of those.

 

[220swift]

DaveE907

If you are leaving the ELSR rod handle off, I would be interested in it if you want to get rid of it.

Hal [email protected]

 

[rke[pler]

Thats still not what I was asking ;<)

On mine, I have 1" of slop. If I move the lever up until the ELSR rod just starts to turn, then downwards until it just starts to turn the opposite way, there is 1" of play.

Measuring the travel of the ELSR handle I see about the same 1", and I know I have a good fit on the key and keyway, the slop has to be in the gear interfacing.

 

[rimcanyon]

Dave, thanks for the clarification.

Russ, thanks for the data point, which compares with mine.

I saw little evidence of wear in the upper gears when I assembled mine, and the key/keyway fit was not that bad, but there is one additional likely place for wear: the bore of the lower gear, and the fit of the lower gear in the steel bushings on either side. Wear in those areas would let the gear fall down and increase the play.

The felt seals in mine were in poor shape. The metal washers that compress the felt were worn (the tabs were almost worn off). My guess is that this area traps a lot of sediment, with the carriage constantly moving and the slot in the ELSR rod acting as a pathway for particles to get into the mechanism.

Keeping those felt seals up seems to be as important as the other way wipes, maybe more so due to the lack of lubrication. It is interesting that Monarch designed the mechanism in such a way that it is easy to remove the ELSR rod and get at the seals.

I have often wondered if Monarch had anything like a set of printed maintenance procedures that they provided to their field techs or to the U.S. military rebuilding centers. It would be interesting to see if Monarch recommended replacement of these seals yearly, and what additional maintenance items were considered regular periodic maintenance.

-Dave

 

[DaveE907]

Alan, the two part polyurethane system is PPG NCP280 2.1 VOC Primer Surfacer with NCX285 Low VOC Hardener. It's intended for auto body work and spray application. I use a supplied air system when spraying it with a HVLP gun but have found it works very well unreduced (reducer is acetone for spray) for brush appication with high quality sable brushes. Comes in handy for small parts and areas plus there's little or no masking and no nasty gun cleanup either. In a light breeze outdoors all that's needed are nitrile gloves when brushing it.

Dave, one thing encountered on this machine was a very poorly fitted taper pin holding the handle casting to its shaft. There was appreciable movement there originally so the hole was reamed and a new pin fitted. Perhaps there is play there for you too.

Some of the workmanship inside the machine has been disappointing. Discovered an artfully hidden (from the inspector is my guess) broken tap when this ELSR was disassembled. It had been carefully concealed with a fitted and filed plug in the hole. Then a new hole was dutifully drilled, tapped and had its setscrew properly intalled next to the hidden mess. When the parts were eventually forced apart it caused some damage that needed repair.

Hal, I'll keep your request in mind. I need the old handle to clock the new one if I make one, still on the fence about it and waiting for material. In any case the old handle will be surplus soon.