Celtic (Mondiale) 14 lathe controls

[NielsK]

Hi guys, I seem to have stumbled upon a machine similar to yours.
Any chance you could share those english and french manuals you found?
Not sure if my PM was sent out so I thought I`d give this a try.

 

[leeko]

Sure, I can forward by email

If you happen to have your headstock apart for any reason, please let me know what you find in terms of bearings in there.

Thanks!

Lee

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[pieterb]

Hello, I live very close to the Mondiale factory. Is the search for bearings urgent? Send me your serial number, and a picture from the lathe and will go to the factory and ask for the bearing type. if they don't want to give it to me, I will ask for the price of a bearing set.

greetings

Pieter

 

[leeko]

Oh, awesome thanks very much Pieter!

No, not urgent at all - it will likely be a month or so before I have time to disassemble my headstock anyway

Thanks again - I'll take a look for the serial number tonight

Lee

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[Steven A]

Hello, I saw this thread was picked up again. Leeko, the bearings in the lathe are indeed tapered roller bearings. shouldn't be overly expensive, could depend heavily on the brand you buy them from. SKF vs SNR NTN or something. RAL colour is 6011. If anyone has time, I would like to know the dimension of the motor pulley. bought mine without motor and pulley. Now it has the pulleu I got with the motor, but it is running slow. All in all mine turned out to be relatively ok, ways look like they have been ground straight. Turned down a shaft over 200mm only had 0.02mm error.

 

[leeko]

Hi Steven,

Thanks for confirming. Do you know if the original tapered roller bearings are gamet brand? I was under the impression that gamet bearings were all pretty much non-standard sizes, and that other brand (cheaper) replacements are non-existent...

I can see if I can access the motor on my lathe this weekend, but I think my mill might currently be partially blocking the access door... (I need more space!)

Lee

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[thermite]

Hi Steven,

Thanks for confirming. Do you know if the original tapered roller bearings are gamet brand? I was under the impression that gamet bearings were all pretty much non-standard sizes, and that other brand (cheaper) replacements are non-existent...

Gamet were CREATED as an alternative to uber-costliest of Timken's best hand-selected (and priced accordingly), bragged for years of being a LESS costly alternative.

The "600 Group" spun Gamet out . what? A year or two ago?

The story was published on their websites and those of the financial gurus who track such company re-organisation things.

ISTR I posted the links on PM meself. But those may be anong the many thousands now missing.

In any case, the NEW owner were already a full-line bearings house.
AFAIK, they can still supply Gamets or a fit-alike?

So, too, Timken replacements can be found.

ALL sizes are "non-standard" if only off the back of minority use, not common use.

"Cheap" on the other hand neither ever were. Not in the high-grades.

As with high-grade Old Iron roller-bearing spindles in general, one would have to "luck-out" on NOS bearings that the holder of had not (yet) up-priced.

As usual, "luck" is whatever it is...

 

[leeko]

Thanks for the background Bill

Any idea why the cost of precision tapered rollers for lathe spindle ($~1400ish, from what I can gather) is so much higher than for a mill spindle ($300-400 for say a bridgeport)?

Lee

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[thermite]

Thanks for the background Bill

Any idea why the cost of precision tapered rollers for lathe spindle ($~1400ish, from what I can gather) is so much higher than for a mill spindle ($300-400 for say a bridgeport)?

Lee

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Around $3,000 . mebbe more? For 10EE.

Scarcity.

Take the dimunitive Burke #4 mill. Hand-selecting a decent Timken wasn't terribly hard. The same bearing was also used on the front wheel of multiple millions of Military vehicles. Burke didn't NEED "the best". only "above average" out of the normal QC process.

10EE's bearings were NOT used on very many other items. They DID need the best. 50 millionths TIR standard, 35 millionths a standard OPTION. Need better, say so, wait for it, pay more, you could have it special ORDER. Atom bomb cores? I wasn't in that room.

Hand selecting the best of the best from a far lesser pool count of candidates just had to be far more costly.

"The good news.." is that production means in the bearing industry have continued to improve such that dead-average bearing quality is HIGHER than ever, and costs - relative to bread, tires for the truck, fuel, beer, steaks, bar, or brothel bills, are LOWER than ever.

If it comes to "stock" bearings with TIR as bad as a "quarter tenth" that are affordable, AND a genuine improvement (Bridgeports always pay well enough to justify new..) ELSE $3,000 for 10EE bearings? Or $1,800 for Celtic?

The wise simply go and find a whole 'nuther LATHE entire...that still has in-spec life LEFT in its existing bearings.

Then "run what they got" as best they can.

It's just cheaper that way. Brand-new or even 30-year-old "CNC" critters ate that super-precision all-manual lathe's vittles a long time ago. NOW we are living on table-scraps.

Or even just playin' wit' ourselves out of a mix of boredom and nostalgia.

Because we can.




2 X 10EE worth... and a spare spindle..

 

[Steven A]

Hi, do you really need the high precicion bearings? couldn't you just use these:
SKF
Dont think what they put in the lathe in the sixties was that extraordinary.
Or am I missing something?

 

[leeko]

As I understand it, putting non-precision bearings in a lathe spindle will work, but will give a wandering runout of around 1-2 thousandths. That's what I have now.

Do I need precision bearings for my purposes? Nope
I sure do want them though...



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[Steven A]

Maybe you can get the spindle bearings better than 1-2 thousandths, but then you still have an old lathe with a (somewhat)worn bed, and crossslide and...

 

[thermite]

As I understand it, putting non-precision bearings in a lathe spindle will work, but will give a wandering runout of around 1-2 thousandths. That's what I have now.

Do I need precision bearings for my purposes? Nope
I sure do want them though...



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No, not one or two THOU. You should be able to get down to sub TWO TENTHS, even with very average rolling-element bearings. Not skateboard-wheel El Cheapos, but still....

50 millionths, 35 millionths..that was 10EE as of 1939.

By the mid-late 1960's LeBlond and Timken were in an advertising co-op program where they took, for example, the whole back cover of dead-tree magazine "American Machinist" about every second month - inside pages in the in-betwen months - to advertise a LeBlond with 25 millionths TIR spindle bearings.

Two-tenths or so is about all you can expect from the WORKHOLDING - good collets, for example.

So if you can get an old lathe to a "half tenth".. ten times worse than the "half of a 100 thousandth" that 50 millionths represents, you can easily, reliably, and often split ONE THOU in the work.. and a "half-thou" is all we really need, most any day, "if even" that fine.

Most work I did, plus 2 thou, minus zero, was about as tight a spec as we ever saw, and it was considered tight - not common.

The world is FULL of average stuff that isn't even that picky.

Shorter advice: Lathe spindles were built to use available bearings that already existed. Not the other way around.

Ergo a decent bearing house should be able to help you get all the improvement you can realistically put to use. Collars, sleeves, shims? You may need to buy or have made. PM community is a resource for that. I am not he as is the expert but we have many here who surely are.

US / European / Skandihooligan / Japanese.. even Chinese?

Doesn't make a damn.

ROLLING element bearings have been done to METRIC dimensions from Day Zero to present day.

 

[Gearhead2]

Hello, I saw this thread was picked up again. Leeko, the bearings in the lathe are indeed tapered roller bearings. shouldn't be overly expensive, could depend heavily on the brand you buy them from. SKF vs SNR NTN or something. RAL colour is 6011. If anyone has time, I would like to know the dimension of the motor pulley. bought mine without motor and pulley. Now it has the pulleu I got with the motor, but it is running slow. All in all mine turned out to be relatively ok, ways look like they have been ground straight. Turned down a shaft over 200mm only had 0.02mm error.

The motor pulley on my Celtic 12 is 3.5” diameter. The upper pulley is 9”. I’m new to the forum but I’ll try to post pics.

 

[donie]

Gamet taper roller bearings have a hole through the rollers for cooling, they were used on some Colchesters, and are extremely expensive, I do know that.
Putting regular bearings in place, reduces the machine to that of an Atlas.

 

[dominichedmark]

Hello Lee can you share this manual with me also? I have bought my first lathe yesterday and it is Celtic 17 from the picture's it's look like yours so I think I could be very helpful to start.

 

[leeko]

Hi, send me a PM with your email and I'll send you what I have

Thanks

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[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Gamet taper roller bearings have a hole through the rollers for cooling, they were used on some Colchesters, and are extremely expensive, I do know that.
Putting regular bearings in place, reduces the machine to that of an Atlas.

Yes an easy way to check if they are “ Gamet “ bearings - are the rollers hollow ?

Regards Tyrone.