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Change lathe toolholder to one for shaper

Cannonmn

New member
These pix will give u an idea of what I have in mind. The 24” Cincinnati shaper came with one tool holder that’s really for a lathe since it holds tool at wrong angle. I have 3 0f these large forged tool holders that fit the shaper lantern post perfectly but are useless for correct shaper cutting, although we’ve done some test shaping with it and a specially ground cutter. It works but finish is poor. John Morris has shared 3 photos with you! | Flickr

So I’m thinking of making the cutter slot parallel to the bottom edge of the holder. Yes wire edm would be great but we don’t have it. I’ll need a wedge for the bottom rear of the slot and a small circular wedge under the square-head cutter retaining screw but those are easy. What is best metal removal method for the wedge of forged steel I need to remove at top of the nearly square hole? One-side square file, long keyway broach, or what? I’m guessing someone’s already done this. Or just start over and make a minimalist T-shaped holder like video guy Steve Summers does? I’ve looked for original shaper toolholders for 1/2 inch cutters but can’t find. I have smaller pivot-head holders for shapers but they take 1/4 in. Cutters, I want to use 1/2 in. Or larger.
 

L Vanice

Active member
Did you consider heating the holders to red and bending the tool-holding portion to the desired angles with respect to the shank? Then re-heat treating, of course.

Larry
 

Cannonmn

New member
Did you consider heating the holders to red and bending the tool-holding portion to the desired angles with respect to the shank? Then re-heat treating, of course.

Larry


Thx, yes shaper is one possibility, we have a 12-inch we could use, would still need a special tool to hold some cutter. Hot bending is an interesting possibility but I’ll have to check how to reharden as far as temp to reach, then guess need oil-quench?
 

L Vanice

Active member
If your main objective is to have the 1/2" square hole parallel with the bottom of the shank, they did make straight, right hand and left hand holders that way. The common forged holders like 4-L have back-angled holes for HSS bits ground in such a way as to maximize regrinds. When brazed tungsten carbide bits with the carbide set at angles became popular, Armstrong and others made forged holders with a T prefix that suited those tungsten carbide bits.

So, search for Armstrong holders with models T-4 S. T-4 R or T-4 L. I bet they are scarce, but it would not hurt to look.

I did find one: ARMSTRONG NO T4-R ABOUT 1/2" SQUARE HOLE LATHE TOOL BIT HOLDER SOUTHBEND MONARCH | eBay

As for the bending method, an oxy-acetylene torch can heat a local area behind the rear of the square hole so the bend is concentrated in an area that does not distort the square hole or most of the shank.

As to heat treating, you could ask a pro heat treat shop if you are not experienced enough to do it yourself. In general, alloy steels like oil quench and plain carbon steels like water. One way to sort it is to try oil first and do it over with water if it does not get hard with oil. But the pro shop is your best bet. Heat treat is pretty cheap and doing several parts at once spreads the cost. Part of the cost is the shop figuring out what steel you have, of course.

Larry
 

Cannonmn

New member
If your main objective is to have the 1/2" square hole parallel with the bottom of the shank, they did make straight, right hand and left hand holders that way. The common forged holders like 4-L have back-angled holes for HSS bits ground in such a way as to maximize regrinds. When brazed tungsten carbide bits with the carbide set at angles became popular, Armstrong and others made forged holders with a T prefix that suited those tungsten carbide bits.

So, search for Armstrong holders with models T-4 S. T-4 R or T-4 L. I bet they are scarce, but it would not hurt to look.

I did find one: ARMSTRONG NO T4-R ABOUT 1/2" SQUARE HOLE LATHE TOOL BIT HOLDER SOUTHBEND MONARCH | eBay

As for the bending method, an oxy-acetylene torch can heat a local area behind the rear of the square hole so the bend is concentrated in an area that does not distort the square hole or most of the shank.

As to heat treating, you could ask a pro heat treat shop if you are not experienced enough to do it yourself. In general, alloy steels like oil quench and plain carbon steels like water. One way to sort it is to try oil first and do it over with water if it does not get hard with oil. But the pro shop is your best bet. Heat treat is pretty cheap and doing several parts at once spreads the cost. Part of the cost is the shop figuring out what steel you have, of course.

Larry

Thx, lots of useful info. I may also look into making a holder, if I use 4140PH no hardening is needed, and I probably have it in the Xsec dimensions needed. Also I like what Steve Summers made but I can’t see much of it. Must be T-shaped and maybe cutter is welded on? Anyone happen to have a pic or know where I can find one of the holder/cutter installed in his shaper in this pic?
 

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Rob F.

Active member
I have several sizes of straight tool holders and a big swivel holder or two. I dont think the straight tool holders are parallel to the bottom edge, the big swivel is though. What size shank will fit in your lantern holder?
 

Cannonmn

New member
Thx, the post takes a Williams no. 4 size holder, which per the old Williams catalog has a 7/8 x 1 7/8 x 10 inch shank. I’d be interested in the swivel head if it fits or even if one size less, I could shim it. Also interested in any that size made for carbide with smaller angle than the made-for-HSS-ones.
 

stephen thomas

Active member
You must be new here, and maybe as bad at google-fu as i am. :)


You can use that lathe tool.
It is better, as Larry notes, to get the kind made for carbide. All the major makers of that style forged tool holder also made them for the early brased carbide tools, and the hole is parallel to the bottom surface. (no rake)
However, if you merely shape the end of your tool on a complementary down angle, it will work fine. Put the bit in the holder, extended somewhat more than you would for actual use. Now, eye-balling to keep the tool angles wrsp to the bottom surface of the holder, grind it on your pedestal grinder, and hone for use. Then set it back in the holder and go to work.

One advantage this method includes (& the real reason "back rake" holders were made for the lathe, is that with a good starting grind, you never need to cut the whole end of the tool off and start over. The advance of the sharpening angles keeps them at an angle to the toolbit and sharpening naturally advances along the length of the bit without undercutting into it. This works for most typcial working grinds, except the finish grinds with a lot of shear hollow ground along the tip. But that style can still be run in you holder, with appropriate attention to where the angles need to be when the bit is actually in the holder.

Most people are tired of seeing my photos of building shaper and planer tooling, but here are some ideas.

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stephen thomas

Active member
Sort of depends how big your shaper is.
If you are using 1/2" sq tools, be sure there is enough bulk and set screws for the task.
That holder is typically for straddle bits, or for combining bits to make a specific width. I see in that holder they also allowed considerationf for a cross-ways bit, as well. Unfortunately, it does not really give much more flexibility in positioning the cutter than a slimmmer, centered, conventional full mortise holder. Unless you need to plane a lot of tongues, and slots.

I made one holder sort of on that principle (opposite handed bits in one holder), but it has more strength and positive location for the RH/LH bits; and the holder is better centered.

smt_planerslide3.jpg


The holder is double ended. The slot is slanted, so the edge of the bit clears the side of the holder and has back relief along the side. The face can be ground as appropriate for shear or neutral side rake. As you can sort of see, it is double ended, the opposite hand bit being on the other end, just out of the top of the picture.

smt
 

Cannonmn

New member
Thx, our larger shaper is 24” Cinci. Yes I’d probably overdesign my holder, having lots of stock and all known sizes of grub screws. Like your design too.
 

lucky7

Active member
Smt, I’ve learned many things from you in the past, including putting the cutting edge behind the tool shank on my shaper, so any time you want to post pics please do!

Best,
L7
 

Rob F.

Active member
I dug out my old toolholders and here are some pics.
The shaper extension holder is 15/16x2" with a 1.49" hole for the "boring bar", it has no brand name on it, a 1/2 SHCS clamps the bar. The others are angled up, one of the pics I put a 1/2" bar in the tool slot to show the angle. I also have a #5 straight toolholder that is flat, but #5 is bigger& it looked like a 5/8 sq tool. Let me know if any of this interests you.
P1080592.jpgP1080593.jpgP1080594.jpgP1080595.jpg
 

Cannonmn

New member
Thx, yes the extension one is of interest, I could easily reduce dims to fit my lantern post. Pls send details of how to get it either here or in pm. I can send $ via text to a cell No., forgot what they call that feature.
 

Rob F.

Active member
Rob, you probably don’t remember, we talked a few years ago about your bigger shaper toolholders that you couldn’t find at the time. If the OP doesn’t want them and you are still interested in selling I’m still interested. Feel free to email or pm me.

Regards,
L7
Thank you for reminding me, I did think of you when I found the box these were in. The BIG planer holders I have are #43, one each armstrong and williams. Not small by any means. Also about the same size is a straight shaper tool holder that has a 1 1/2" x 2 1/2" shank and takes 7/8" tools, it has been shortened to about 1/2 it's original length so no longer has the number on it for size.
 

Rob F.

Active member
Thx, yes the extension one is of interest, I could easily reduce dims to fit my lantern post. Pls send details of how to get it either here or in pm. I can send $ via text to a cell No., forgot what they call that feature.

Let me measure its length to see what flat rate box it will fit in.
 








 
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