Change lathe toolholder to one for shaper

[Ohio Mike]

If your main objective is to have the 1/2" square hole parallel with the bottom of the shank, they did make straight, right hand and left hand holders that way. The common forged holders like 4-L have back-angled holes for HSS bits ground in such a way as to maximize regrinds. When brazed tungsten carbide bits with the carbide set at angles became popular, Armstrong and others made forged holders with a T prefix that suited those tungsten carbide bits.

So, search for Armstrong holders with models T-4 S. T-4 R or T-4 L. I bet they are scarce, but it would not hurt to look.

I did find one: ARMSTRONG NO T4-R ABOUT 1/2" SQUARE HOLE LATHE TOOL BIT HOLDER SOUTHBEND MONARCH | eBay

As for the bending method, an oxy-acetylene torch can heat a local area behind the rear of the square hole so the bend is concentrated in an area that does not distort the square hole or most of the shank.

As to heat treating, you could ask a pro heat treat shop if you are not experienced enough to do it yourself. In general, alloy steels like oil quench and plain carbon steels like water. One way to sort it is to try oil first and do it over with water if it does not get hard with oil. But the pro shop is your best bet. Heat treat is pretty cheap and doing several parts at once spreads the cost. Part of the cost is the shop figuring out what steel you have, of course.

Larry

I think I have some of these along with some in #5 size. I'd have to go look to see what I have.

 

[rogertoolmaker]

These pix will give u an idea of what I have in mind. The 24” Cincinnati shaper came with one tool holder that’s really for a lathe since it holds tool at wrong angle. I have 3 0f these large forged tool holders that fit the shaper lantern post perfectly but are useless for correct shaper cutting, although we’ve done some test shaping with it and a specially ground cutter. It works but finish is poor. John Morris has shared 3 photos with you! | Flickr

So I’m thinking of making the cutter slot parallel to the bottom edge of the holder. Yes wire edm would be great but we don’t have it. I’ll need a wedge for the bottom rear of the slot and a small circular wedge under the square-head cutter retaining screw but those are easy. What is best metal removal method for the wedge of forged steel I need to remove at top of the nearly square hole? One-side square file, long keyway broach, or what? I’m guessing someone’s already done this. Or just start over and make a minimalist T-shaped holder like video guy Steve Summers does? I’ve looked for original shaper toolholders for 1/2 inch cutters but can’t find. I have smaller pivot-head holders for shapers but they take 1/4 in. Cutters, I want to use 1/2 in. Or larger.

I wonder if the tool bit sharpened contour could correct the poor finish without the purchase of a new tool holder. The Cincinnati Sharper is a Sweet Machine. Is the condition of the Clapper Box good? About 65 years ago I ran this Shaper in a Job shop, steady for about 4 years. Sharpen the tool bit as you would for a normal cutting edge, then use the hand grinder to grind a Chip Breaker along the cutting edge. You may find considerable improvement the finish.
Roger

 

[Cannonmn]

We got the small toolholder in and our apprentice made an aluminum toolholder cozy for it. We tried it out, works fine. John Morris has shared 5 photos with you! | Flickr

There’s another one on the way, really a planer Toolholder, with a shank too fat for our lantern toolpost, but a short time in the Bridgeport will shrink it just enough.

 

[Rob F.]

Things were very hectic for the last week or so, sorry for delayed response.
PM's sent to Cannonmn and lucky7 re toolholders.

 

[Cannonmn]

Thx, we’re slowly turning out toolholders by adapting smaller and larger ones to our toolpost. No pm but thx for trying.

 

[Rob F.]

Thx, we’re slowly turning out toolholders by adapting smaller and larger ones to our toolpost. No pm but thx for trying.

I just replied to the last PM you sent me, let me know if it went through.

 

[Cannonmn]

Yes got it, replied.

 

[Rob F.]

More details on the extension shaper holder I posted back in post #16. Here are pics of all sides.

 

[Cannonmn]

More details on the extension shaper holder I posted back in post #16. Here are pics of all sides.
View attachment 338290View attachment 338291View attachment 338292View attachment 338293

Cool, yes that’d work fine for us.

John

 

[marka12161]

Thx, lots of useful info. I may also look into making a holder, if I use 4140PH no hardening is needed, and I probably have it in the Xsec dimensions needed. Also I like what Steve Summers made but I can’t see much of it. Must be T-shaped and maybe cutter is welded on? Anyone happen to have a pic or know where I can find one of the holder/cutter installed in his shaper in this pic?

I'm pretty sure that "T" shaped thing is just a spacer to allow him to use a large HSS bit with no holder. I second the use of the T prefix versions of the lantern style tool holders. Stephen Thomas has raised shaper tool holder design & build to a high art.

 

[Cannonmn]

Here’s our apprentice cutting down a large-shank toolholder so it will fit our shaper’s lantern post. We’ll use it in the horizontal position so the cutter will be vertical.

https://youtu.be/OY9GclStmyI

 

[CarbideBob]

Confused.
Is the cutting geometry the whatever in the holder or the grind on the bit?
In this case tool bit in hand and tool in machine are not the same so maybe that makes things weird.
All that matters is what the cutting edge and clearances present to the work piece. Who cares how the base mount is orientated?
Yes this becomes more confusing if the worlds are not nice and straight and a lot of people have problems twisting this around at first.
I run into this also on a easier level with tool geometry above and below centerline on a lathe. Many say no, this is bad.
Cutting tool interface to part.
Bob

 

[morsetaper2]

John,

Used to have a 12" Steptoe years ago. One time I was up in Baltimore and decided to stop by Norman Machine Tool. They had a shitload of old toolholders in a tub. I was able to get a few shaper toolholders for a pretty cheap price piled in w/ some other tooling I found in the warehouse.

They wouldn't/didn't know a shaper tool holder from a lathe toolholder. And if you've priced shaper toolholders you know they don't come cheap. But lathe toolholders can be had for near scrap. They didn't know one for the other.

Just an idea if your travels take you up that way.

 

[Cannonmn]

Confused.
Is the cutting geometry the whatever in the holder or the grind on the bit?
In this case tool bit in hand and tool in machine are not the same so maybe that makes things weird.
All that matters is what the cutting edge and clearances present to the work piece. Who cares how the base mount is orientated?
Yes this becomes more confusing if the worlds are not nice and straight and a lot of people have problems twisting this around at first.
I run into this also on a easier level with tool geometry above and below centerline on a lathe. Many say no, this is bad.
Cutting tool interface to part.
Bob

Thx, we got the shaper without any usable toolholders. The one that came with it was made for holding hss cutters in a lathe toolpost, didn’t work on the shaper due to the high angle of the cutter holding part.

So our first job is to get one or more usable toolholders. We have no issue with cutter design, have a few ready to go

 

[Cannonmn]

I’m looking for a Williams No. 42 planer tool holder now. This is one with the turret-type business end, think it takes 1/2 inch cutters but not sure. But we’ve gotten very good results as far as surface finish using a No. T-4 and a cutter ground with straight knife edge, cocked a few degrees so work enters from the high side. I know the books and videos want us to grind the classic “clipped spoon” shaper grind, but as long as we get good results with the knife, it is much simpler to grind. We were cutting mild steel at 44 spm with motor oil on the work as coolant, and only going about 0.005” deep, feed 0.020 in. In the photo the right 3/4 of the workpiece is what’s been cut as described, the left 1/4 is from failed methods.

 

[Rob F.]

I also have these. The big ones are #43 that use 5/8 tools. The smaller one is a copy or unbranded Williams type. It has no name or size on it, and is missing the rest of the parts, measurements should be in pic. Armstrong has slots at 45º for the tool bit, Williams has the serrated teeth for more adjustability. Up thread Stephen Thomas made the entire tool...post #9

 

[Cannonmn]

Thx for photos. Any you decide are surplus to your needs are welcome here.