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Chinese insert vs American/Japanese?

ILikeMachining

Plastic
Joined
Nov 26, 2021
Location
Kansas
The real question is, why did capitalists offshore all our industry and jobs to China?

There, fixed that for ya.

You mean the capital***, not sure that is the proper word to describe them maybe Crony's??? whom work for the Democrats. (Their money bundlers and talking heads?) Democrats sign the welfare bills, the money flows to Buffet, Bezo's, etc. Then they return the favor by donating cash back to the Democrat ran foundations where the whole (Democrat)outfit is on the take.
There fixed it for ya.

Honestly the offshoring started during Clinton era, all the big companies in Arkansas he was tied to went to China. The Biggest one was obviously Walmart, which ruined small town America. That is what Clinton was hired for, while his Wife sat on the Board.
 

ILikeMachining

Plastic
Joined
Nov 26, 2021
Location
Kansas
I believe you are wrong. Most of Iscar's products have always been and continue to be made in Israel.

Iscar has a huge factory in China, trust me I know what I am talking about. As soon as Buffet bought them he made sure China was the big hub for making tooling, etc. It was an instant financial arbitrage in his favor.
 

taiwanluthiers

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 6, 2016
Location
Xinjhuan District, New Taipei City
You should know Clintons are not really considered "leftist" in any stretch of imagination. They are just slightly less "republicans" compared to real republicans.

Yes the Democrats are actually just slightly less conservative Republicans, with the exception of people like AOC and Sanders. But then the Democratic Party doesn't really take them seriously, just enough to be talked about on the media sure, but not enough to actually formulate policy.

Republicans and Democrat party are of one mind when it comes to offshoring. Pretty much a bipartisan thing.
 

SND

Diamond
Joined
Jan 12, 2003
Location
Canada
I use mainly Sandvik and almost all of the inserts I get are MADE IN USA. A few from Sweden and the rare Japan made one.
Sandvik invested quite a bit in increasing their USA production a few years ago.
I have 3 of their insert drills(2, 880's, 1 DS20) and they are are MADE IN USA also and have performed excellent.
Most tool holders India but quality has been good.
 

michiganbuck

Diamond
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
It is easy to find examples to criticize the USA, teenagers and students are fast to fall for the rhetoric. Fortunately we, most of us know people here from many other countries so can ask and find that most are here for a better living.

I am just a factory rat...and I put two kids through higher education, go figure that is not likely in many countries.

That stuff has little to do with tooling and is just a good way to turn the thread to politics and get the thread closed.
 

Joe Gwinn

Stainless
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Location
Boston, MA area
Location says he's in Taiwan. They aren't usually big fans of PRC...

Not clear at all. Look at the OP's stated location, "TAIWAN, PROVINCE OF CHINA".

Claiming that Taiwan is a province of China is the PRC's position, in direct contradiction to the position of the government of Taiwan (and the voters of Taiwan).
 

taiwanluthiers

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 6, 2016
Location
Xinjhuan District, New Taipei City
Sorry, I don't write the locations... there's just a list.

Besides as more and more companies end up in the pocket of the CCP, they'll continue to say this.

Taiwan will likely join China sooner or later... most likely peacefully (like China offering a deal that they can't refuse).

Xi already made a rule saying that Taiwanese can basically immigrate to China anytime they want.
 

Orange Vise

Stainless
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Location
California
I don't know what your experience regarding Chinese inserts are, but I've found they have really upped their games in the last few years regarding insert quality.

As in... a D is better than an F?

As long as you use the insert at their recommended feed/speed/material, they produce a fantastic finish that is little different than their American counterpart costing 10 times more (we're talking a difference of about 10RMB per insert for Chinese WNMG ones vs 10 US dollar per insert for say a Iscar or Kennemetal ones)

There's a whole lot more to a carbide insert than the surface finish it produces when new. I'd like to see the surface finish after that insert has spent a few hours in the cut.

Quality inserts not only start with a highly refined substrate, free of impurities and inclusions, but they're dimensionally consistent from insert to insert, and the multi-layer CVD and PVD coatings are equally consistent in quality and thickness. It's a time consuming process that doesn't lend itself to shortcuts. The end result is predictable finishes and tool life.

Hard pass on the Chinese inserts. You might get a handful of good ones, followed by one horrible one that results in a machine crash. All this to save a few bucks?
 

Mtndew

Diamond
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Location
Michigan
As long as you use the insert at their recommended feed/speed/material, they produce a fantastic finish that is little different than their American counterpart costing 10 times more

I'm curious.... what "American counterpart" are you referring to?
How many big name carbide insert manufacturers do you think are located in the USA?
 

taiwanluthiers

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 6, 2016
Location
Xinjhuan District, New Taipei City
Right now I live close to Huilong MRT station which about 5 MRT stations from Sanchong. Sanchong bus tends to have really aggressive drivers for some reason.

Anyways I don't really care too much about politics but my family is basically KMT fanboy, as my parents are military officers (you have to be KMT to be military officers in their days).

I have no idea as far as "top" brand in Taiwan as far as tooling goes. Seems the top stuff is Japanese, meaning Mitsubishi or Sumitomo, and as for Taiwanese tooling I have no idea the companies. Lots of manufacturers in Taiwan are basically export only, meaning everything they make goes on a container and is driven straight to the dock, no domestic market AT ALL. It is impossible to get those products in Taiwan unless you know the factory owner, or you find it for retail on Amazon and pay expensive shipping to have it reimported to Taiwan (and by contract they HATE doing that).

I saw a video from Ave where he said how Taiwanese used to eat dogs, and I don't know if it's true but it seems very disparaging of Taiwanese. In fact I find this attitude prevalent with expats in Taiwan. They give the people in this country very little respect, anymore than you'd respect some random kid in Africa.

Problem is if I go to some tooling shop to buy inserts, I have no idea the provenance of those inserts. They may claim Taiwanese but I would not be surprised at all if it was Chinese.

For me I am afraid to work in any factory in Taiwan because climate control is very rare here, and it's hot here most of the year, meaning I'd only want to work there between november and march. Not to mention too many factory here looks too third world with about the same safety standard.
 

taiwanluthiers

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 6, 2016
Location
Xinjhuan District, New Taipei City
Right now I am using some Chinese insert. Bought it from Taobao, costs about 10RMB. It works well if you use the speed and feed it recommends, and on the right material too (it tells you what material it's for, for example any steel under 40HRc, or aluminum (it looks shiny)). I'm also using some cheap Chinese insert tooling too. If I buy it from a tooling store in Taiwan I will expect to pay about 5 times the price, and chances are it will be the same Chinese crap.

When I was in the states I had a box of Mitsubishi inserts that worked very well if you went within their recommendation. At the time I had Precision Matthews PM1228 lathe in a third floor apartment. I think the victor lathe has far more power than that.

For my first project I made a sanding attachment for my milling machine. Previously I used a 1"-8 UNC threaded rod, but the threaded rod had severe limitations. I had used my milling machine to reduce the diameter so it can be chucked, and I needed a support at the bottom so it does not flop around. I ended up using a piece of 4140, and turned a 16mm shank so it can go into a drill chuck, and a 20mm smooth shank at the bottom that goes into a hole in a wood block to act as tail support. I then inserted this into 4" rubber discs that can hold a sanding sleeve, and it allows me to thickness sand guitar wood. I would use the mill's saddle as a guide to adjust thickness.

I had to make this thing twice because I had trouble with threading tooling breaking on me... I ended up grinding my own HSS tool for this and it worked well.

Too bad I can't do gunsmithing, I would love to but it's also kinda illegal in Taiwan.

This is the insert I got, says it's for stainless steel.
messageImage_1652224891772.jpg
 

JohannesL

Plastic
Joined
Jul 27, 2021
Do you like Iscar? Most Iscar products are made in China now, with Warren Buffet collecting the 90% profit when Americans buy it.

I have never seen anything branded Iscar made in China. At least not lathe tooling, which is what I use.

Incerts are made in Israel.
Tool holder also made in Israel. 25/8/2021 date of manufacture.
Got some Iscar screws, made in Switzerland.

What Iscar tools are made in China? That you know of.

I'm not sure I would like it if they moved their production line there.
 

adammil1

Titanium
Joined
Mar 12, 2001
Location
New Haven, CT
I have to wonder about Chinese inserts and if it's just plain old fashioned dumping. Here's the Tungsten production by country • Tungsten: production worldwide by country 2021 | Statista notice how most of it all comes from China. Wouldn't be too hard to cut domestic production deals that are unavailable anywhere else in the world so they can sell an insert for $0.75 when everyone else is at $7ea.

It seems like China's gameplan is usually in most industries to flood the world with the cheapest products, slowly increasing quality till it's as good as anyone else's without increasing costs. Then only once you put out the global competition do you finally raise prices. Makes me wonder if that's the case with their inserts?

They've got tons of manufacturing over there so some of those inserts must be good. The problem with China is lack of good brands so you can't tell good from bad and if you do find a good one how do you know you're getting the good and not a knock off. I wonder how the Chinese shop for their own stuff when they want quality. I hear ZCC is pretty good for China brands.

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk
 








 
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