Cincinnati Horizontal Mill (identification assist and recommendations)

[oceanobob]

Happened upon a horizontal mill manufactured by Cincinnati. Am limited in knowledge and information - the 'deal' is being made by way of this picture where it can be seen the handle is broken (at what I perceive as a speed changer).
Tooling is limited to a few cutters.

If someone can indicate the likely model, I would appreciate very much.

Should I inspire myself to obtain a vertical head option? I have a Diamond products mill and it is horizontal and came with a vertical head option that has come in quite handy. This Cincinnati should be a good second horizontal mill for those larger items.

I have read where Cincinnati had developed a reduced backlash setup on the feed where it could be possible to do some amount of climb milling without causing problems - by any chance is it the opine this machine would have that feature?

Scheduled to haul it about 40 miles this coming Saturday - will update this post with more pics once it is in my shop.

With kind regards....

 

[Elwood1968]

If you can get a photo of the serial number (stamped into the machined face of the column, just below the spindle), that would help.

I'd guess a No. 2 size (or maybe No. 3), probably late 1950s. Perhaps a Model ML or MI. See here for more info:

Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints - No. 2ML Milling Machines | VintageMachinery.org

Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints - Cincinnati ML and MI Milling Machine Brochure | VintageMachinery.org

The feature you referred to is a "backlash eliminator". I don't know when Cincinnati introduced this feature, but my 1956 vintage Toolmaster has it, so I would bet that this mill has it, too.

The vertical attachments are out there, but they usually aren't inexpensive. I find I use the vertical head attachment more than the horizontal arbors on my Cincinnati Cinova 80 205-12 (sort of the later, 1960s version of the mill you posted).

 

[johnoder]

Serial is commonly easiest to find when they are on a tag such as this - with that serial at the bottom edge

These tags incidentally give the model and size ( A 2A is a medium speed dial type)

 

[oceanobob]

Making some more progress, here is a pic of the nameplate indicates it is a No 2 MI 2J2U1Y-10.

The tooling is a few cutters .... w three arbor shafts 1" , 1-1/4", and 1-1/2 (is on the machine).

 

[johnoder]

A Universal made in 1951 ( the 1Y date code says so)

I would expect it has the NMTB 50 spindle nose

Probably some related pubs here

Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints | VintageMachinery.org

have fun

 

[oceanobob]

Mill hauled and made it with no fuss using a 4500# machine to load it on the truck bed and same capacity to unload it.
Getting ready to power it up and has minimal electrical - just a whip to the motor. No motor starter w overload.

Any opines if I should bother to get a Jog feature? I notice there is a clutch - can that mechanism suffice for a jog??

Indeed I will be reading/studying the manuals before actual startup but to save some time on the electrical cause I can get a clamp to line contactor w On Off but gotta order some parts if I want to Jog.

 

[M.B. Naegle]

Mill hauled and made it with no fuss using a 4500# machine to load it on the truck bed and same capacity to unload it.
Getting ready to power it up and has minimal electrical - just a whip to the motor. No motor starter w overload.

Any opines if I should bother to get a Jog feature? I notice there is a clutch - can that mechanism suffice for a jog??

Indeed I will be reading/studying the manuals before actual startup but to save some time on the electrical cause I can get a clamp to line contactor w On Off but gotta order some parts if I want to Jog.

I think you'd be better off using the clutch to "jog" or feather the spindle than to jog the motor. Most of these old horizontals were built to keep the motor running the whole time you were at the machine. I'm not familiar if this model has a mechanical reverse. If so then a simple on/off and overamp protection is all you need. If there's no reverse, a reversing switch is likely needed.

 

[Elwood1968]

Mill hauled and made it with no fuss using a 4500# machine to load it on the truck bed and same capacity to unload it.
Getting ready to power it up and has minimal electrical - just a whip to the motor. No motor starter w overload.

Any opines if I should bother to get a Jog feature? I notice there is a clutch - can that mechanism suffice for a jog??

Indeed I will be reading/studying the manuals before actual startup but to save some time on the electrical cause I can get a clamp to line contactor w On Off but gotta order some parts if I want to Jog.

So the electrical cabinet has been stripped bare?

 

[oceanobob]

The only electrical that goes to the motor is a piece of Liquid Tight Flexible Metallic Conduit (lingo "sealtite") that is attached to the 5 HP GE three phase motor. And three insulated #12 stranded copper wires (hots)and a ground.

From watching asst'd 'machinery vendor for sale Horizontal Cinci Mill yadayada' videos and looking at various publications (sales brochures and manuals) I can discern that the normal electrical control is perhaps something like this On / Stop / Coolant [or similar]....point being No Jog and No Reverse.

Segway about Coolant Pump: Not seeing any coolant pump either - but I can observe the gutter style drain on the backside of the table, and a shower stall looking drain down at the base below the knee.​

This is good news cause I can get a IEC rated starter (contactor and overloads) and scrounge up a disconnect safety switch w fuse holders for not too much investment. Gotta save my nickels for some more tooling.

I also have concluded the machine does have the 'backlash eliminator'. See attached pic.
The brochure found at vintage machinery dated around 1957 is the closest version I can figure. Minus any electrical that is.

On this forum in another posting, there is a discussion about the usage of this feature ... and the idea is if this is adjusted by turning the knob (which I have tried in both directions and the knob indeed turns easily) the hand control in the X direction will be quite stiff - I cannot agree this is the case. The handwheel turns both direction with the similar force regardless of which way the knob for antibacklash is turned.
Therefore maybe the feature merits some adjustment.

That is as far as that goes for now - obviously next is to power it up, check the fluids and then some operational evaluations.

 

[oceanobob]

Perhaps my post 'didnt post'

1. The electrical. All there is a sealtite to the motor but looking at manuals all that typically appears is Stop On and some have a switch for coolant - but I cant see any coolant pump

2. Backlash knob. Looks like this machine has this feature - see attached pic.

(there were more details in my missing post but this is the short version)

 

[texasgeartrain]

Perhaps my post 'didnt post'

1. The electrical. All there is a sealtite to the motor but looking at manuals all that typically appears is Stop On and some have a switch for coolant - but I cant see any coolant pump

2. Backlash knob. Looks like this machine has this feature - see attached pic.

(there were more details in my missing post but this is the short version)

View attachment 334324

My bad, I didn't realize your post was flagged. It should be visible now. No clue why flagged, other than maybe your total post count is low, so posting pics gets flagged. Don't know what that number is, maybe 10 posts ?

I don't get notified on flagged posts, I have to be reading and run into it. PM me should that happen again, as I'll see that notification.

 

[Elwood1968]

The only electrical that goes to the motor is a piece of Liquid Tight Flexible Metallic Conduit (lingo "sealtite") that is attached to the 5 HP GE three phase motor. And three insulated #12 stranded copper wires (hots)and a ground.

From watching asst'd 'machinery vendor for sale Horizontal Cinci Mill yadayada' videos and looking at various publications (sales brochures and manuals) I can discern that the normal electrical control is perhaps something like this On / Stop / Coolant [or similar]....point being No Jog and No Reverse.

Segway about Coolant Pump: Not seeing any coolant pump either - but I can observe the gutter style drain on the backside of the table, and a shower stall looking drain down at the base below the knee.​

This is good news cause I can get a IEC rated starter (contactor and overloads) and scrounge up a disconnect safety switch w fuse holders for not too much investment. Gotta save my nickels for some more tooling.

Correct, the motor does not reverse nor jog. Reversing the spindle is done in the gearbox inside the column, and controlled by a small lever (left, neutral, and right rotation positions) on the left side of the column, next to the spindle speed control.

The coolant pump, if equipped, would be mounted to a boss on the base of the column casting, below the electrical cabinet door. If not equipped, there would be a block-off plate secured by four screws.

I also have concluded the machine does have the 'backlash eliminator'. See attached pic.
The brochure found at vintage machinery dated around 1957 is the closest version I can figure. Minus any electrical that is.

On this forum in another posting, there is a discussion about the usage of this feature ... and the idea is if this is adjusted by turning the knob (which I have tried in both directions and the knob indeed turns easily) the hand control in the X direction will be quite stiff - I cannot agree this is the case. The handwheel turns both direction with the similar force regardless of which way the knob for antibacklash is turned.
Therefore maybe the feature merits some adjustment.

The operator's instruction and the service manuals for the machine should described the procedure for adjusting the backlash eliminator. The manuals for my Cinova 80 (vintage 1966) give the procedure, and I doubt that the design of the eliminator changed much over the years, so if you can't find a manual for your mill, let me know.

 

[oceanobob]

Many thanks to assistance. Have located various publications and can observe the motor is a Off Run pushbutton switch. (Pls recall this machine has only a length of sealtite to the motor - no other electrical).
Obtained a new IEC rated manual starter w overload and surface mounted that enclosure on the exact area of the machine that formerly contained the pushbuttons, shortened the sealtite from the motor and then added a SO cord to a wall mounted three phase disconnect w 20a fuses. If so desired, the starter could be placed in the column where originally mounted and the pushbutton (only) placed in the original location. This install is not less than worthy and it may remain in this manner. Followup with a pic intended.

Started up the machine, luck with me the motor spun correct direction, and the spindle turned oh so smoothly, ran it through all the speeds and noticed (more so w the higher speeds) the clutch lever needs to be slowly moved in position from idle to run otherwise some fairly notable grinding sounds occur and the spindle doesnt operate .... if handle is operated slowly and listen carefully a click can be heard then some spindle movement and a steady acceleration occurs and the lever may be continued to the fully engaged position. Perhaps similar / maybe some behavior such as a manual trans in a pickup where the synchros are worn LOL.

Went to operate items associated with the knee and learned the knee oil level sight glass was stained to allude to an oil level but the oil level is none found. Yes indeed this should have been checked by looking in the sump through the lid but the stain on the sight glass was a duping.

The sight glass lens is a piece of .030 clear plastic and I am planning to craft up a replacement and fill the sump with the oil before any other operation occurs.

Update on the anti-backlash: one of the manuals (presently in a pdf format) shows the maintenance and repair, and adjusting this feature is described pretty well.

 

[oceanobob]

Made the new lens on the knee sight glass with a piece of 60 mil acrylic and added some Mobil DTE to the knee. Good news the sight glass has no leaks.
Not so good was the lack of any X or Y or Z action on the knee.

Turns out a long splined shaft (about a good 4') with a tag "Cinci Coolant Pump" needed the tag removed and the shaft inserted into the machine and then the knee came to life. Have X Y Z both directions and expedited motion as well.

The reason to remove this shaft is a mystery: removing it prevents the coolant pump from operating but it also precludes operation of the features on the knee. Rod can be removed by extending it with a pieces of 1/2-13 allthread or long bolt/capscrew and then lifted straight upward.

Hmmmm but nevertheless guarded optimism.

 

[oceanobob]

Thought I would update. Other than misc testing, the first job for the machine is making bus bar for a electrical panel that is shaped like an L (angle). Said angle has unequal leg lengths and unequal leg thicknesses; fixture and the machine made the job from a 6061 piece: an item of beauty is the part. The stock is two feet, finished part is approx 20" long (TBD at time of install).

In the 'includes some tooling' box of items sold with the machine, I noted some cutters which are the slab mill type and depemding on which one, are about 3 or 4" in diameter .... all these with a significant positive rake and a notable helix angle. These fit the 1-1/2" diameter arbor.

Any general inclination/idea what these are intended usage?

FYI I have yet to use any of these, instead made the bus bar parts with the one inch arbor and a known cutter from my shops tooling.

 

[M.B. Naegle]

Slab mills like that are simply for taking a lot of material off of one side, like a plainer or shaper but faster. The deep gullet on them leaves lots of room for chip evacuation and the helix helps to balance how much load is on the cutter at a given time. They don't do well milling up to a corner, so whatever you're hogging metal off of needs to be same width or narrower then the cutter, or you can use them in conjunction with other side milling cutters to mill multiple features at once (Ex: a 5-6" diameter side milling cutter on either side of the slab mill lets you cut three sides at once).

 

[johnoder]

Any general inclination/idea what these are intended usage?

Very commonly slabbing off stock in the horizontal mode (with arbor and arbor support)

Find yourself the 1951 version of A Treatise on Milling and Milling Machines by the maker of your machine

A big K&T has one in use here. Those chips require substantial feed rates

 

[oceanobob]

I noticed I had been reading 'similar title' books from google, for example one was a treatise from Brown&Sharpe, but they were somewhat older publications (and although informative, had little info re this question about positive rake angles). Found a good condition *hardbound 3rd edition which is around 1951 from Cincinnati Milling Machine Company - and it came yesterday. Yee haw! Many thanks for this recommendation.

FYI from this* very nice book: Table 3 on page 116 shows a positive rake value of around 20 to 35 degrees for a face mill (these are slab mills that I was inquiring about, but the general text indicates 25 or more for aluminum / magnesium).

**The machine came with three sizes of arbors: 1", 1-1/4", and 1-1/2". Because of other tooling from the other horizontal mill, have more 1" sized. Theses slab mills are 1-1/2": will as next practical grab a rem chunk of flat bar Al at the distributor and try the slab mills with the steep positive rake angle.

 

[johnoder]

Only draw back to those cutters is sooner or later they need to be reground