CNC retrofit woes with Machmotion

[madmachinst]

For the pure know nothings that think that people are trying to run Mach 3 on a open loop its hobby grade. What I have isn't and the old Heidenhein controller was more Hobby grade than what I am currently running. That point is moot, this is a review about customer service. These guys are now selling systems with full communication between servos and motion controllers. Not hobby level stuff. Its more open source, so you should not be stuck having to buy their overpriced computer if something goes bad. They shouldn't be forcing you to buy their stuff either. That is why I went with their stuff instead of say for example something from FANUC or Accurite. Wanted to go with centroid all in one, but they wanted to push their entire cabinet on me. This is a comparable system, but less features ( tool check and load meters). My current system has 750 watt AC brushless servo motors so again not hobby level stuff.

 

[Vancbiker]

I have had some experience with pc based controls. Hardware based and software based. They have always exhibited odd behavior at times and the upgrade ability was over sold. One instance had a motion board go bad. The replacement motion board used a different bus so a new computer was needed too. The board needed drivers that were not compatible with the original OS so new OS was needed. Then the old software was not compatible with the new OS. A never ending circle jerk. Leaves a pretty sour opinion of these type systems.

 

[dkmc]

For the pure know nothings that think that people are trying to run Mach 3 on a open loop its hobby grade.

My old Gerber router is in fact open loop steppers. That's they way it was when I bought it and I was very reluctant to use it that way and not upgrade to closed loop brushless servos. But for now it's been working flawlessly and very accurately. It is LinuxCNC not Mach. The last job it did making Textolite insulator parts invoiced for over $5k. I know a guy with a 4x8 CNC Plasma that is open loop Mach3. It's a bit quirky but he makes money with the machine as well. Hobby CNC? Bullshit.



(The flat parts not the cylinders)


More than 20 years ago I got involved with a company and designed/ built (6 or 7 total, I forget) gantry type CNC systems used to waterjet cut stone slabs for architectural work. That company used very basic open loop steppers and "Indexer LPT" software. Very crude, got the job done. http://www.abilitysystems.com/indexer.html These machines and systems were sold for way less than the next alternative, but still cost north of $25k. None of the systems were sold to "hobbyists".

Again, I do not see any specific statement in the forum rules where "Hobby CNC" controls are "banned"......someone point that out please if that's true and I've missed that part.

 

[CarbideBob]

So Mach.... pc based controls.
The first cnc surface grinder control I built was on a COSMAC Elf. Upgraded later to the racing Sinclair ZX-81 so that I had a screen display.
Then along came the IBM pc and low cost clones and I found Galil and Delta-Tau for add in boards.
Mach brought about a super low cost motion control using the parallel port.
I am no fan of step and direction even if your servo drive brains supports such. For many reasons that is a hack with serious limitations. Works great for many uses but not mine.

I think one can use Mach in very serious big machine 24/7 use so not just hobby.
Recently got gifted a used up HMC-400 grinder. $300,000+ machine. Open the back and pc based control.

Mach opened the world to so many in the hobby world and maybe that makes for the distaste.
In the start "full communication between servos and motion controllers". Unsure what that means.

 

[dkmc]

Mach opened the world to so many in the hobby world and maybe that makes for the distaste.

One thing is clear, the folks that repair "industrial" CNC controls tend to bash the PC based controls fast and furious. Most likely because the PC based controls tend to make their services obsolete and un-needed. Some of them have regular customers and make regular stops at various shops visiting and reparing old machines like an old time doctor making house calls. Mention the word "retrofit" or "PC based control" to them and watch the reaction. It's like taking candy from a baby. Why would they want to fix the ailment when the repeat money comes from treating the symptoms? PC based motion control has been used for decades in medical devices in life critical applications.

 

[Garwood]

One thing is clear, the folks that repair "industrial" CNC controls tend to bash the PC based controls fast and furious. Most likely because the PC based controls tend to make their services obsolete and un-needed. Some of them have regular customers and make regular stops at various shops visiting and reparing old machines like an old time doctor making house calls. Mention the word "retrofit" or "PC based control" to them and watch the reaction. It's like taking candy from a baby. Why would they want to fix the ailment when the repeat money comes from treating the symptoms? PC based motion control has been used for decades in medical devices in life critical applications.

LMFAO!!

 

[dkmc]

LMFAO!!

Sure, laugh your ass off......and where's the banned subject, still waiting for you to point that out.

 

[snowman]

I find the whole "hobby" conversation rather humorous as well. I've been a member of this board for more than 20 years. I get the point, that there are other forums better suited. However, I've also seen the posting quality over the last 20 years decline while the forum has become more "professional".

This field is cutting it's own throat by looking down upon "hobbiests".

As for Mach, it hasn't been the same since Art sold it. I've used it to control a variety of tools, in a variety of situations. Each one of those "odd situations" would have required a hefty bill to the manufacturer to tell me what bits to flip in a control that already has the capability to do what I needed it to do, if not a service call as well. Often times, these bills would have exceeded the value of the job, but it kept the customers needs met.

 

[memphisjed]

The last job it did making Textolite insulator parts invoiced for over $5k. I know a guy with a 4x8 CNC Plasma that is open loop Mach3. It's a bit quirky but he makes money with the machine as well. Hobby CNC? Bullshit.

We are almost thru a job in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, started just before Xmas, about 1/2 the hours are on the dragon/programming dragon. Open loop Nema 23 steppers pushing 1 1/2” xs pipe. It miss cut one part so far- out of thousands.
This job is likely to be repeated a few more times as the customer came in for shop tour on Friday taking notes and stuff. Hundreds of thousands of dollars...
The same machine will sit for weeks and not be turned on. Why upgrade, and upgrade to what?

I dislike Mach’s interface and responsiveness more than most here because I use it and know what a Wego plc or windows ce boards mod bus feels like.

Bob, agree the analog control method on servos is far better if you are using real time feedback to and fro. These are systems way beyond Mach/Linux and most all the second tier all in one controllers. Our drill line runs like this on the feeds, responding to thrust and torque, each spindle has its own ce board control, each ce board tied to wego mothership plc, which is tied to a windows pc for hmi, feeding wego, and drag conveyors on infeed/out feed bunks.

 

[dkmc]

I find the whole "hobby" conversation rather humorous as well. I've been a member of this board for more than 20 years. I get the point, that there are other forums better suited. However, I've also seen the posting quality over the last 20 years decline while the forum has become more "professional".

This field is cutting it's own throat by looking down upon "hobbiests".

As for Mach, it hasn't been the same since Art sold it. I've used it to control a variety of tools, in a variety of situations. Each one of those "odd situations" would have required a hefty bill to the manufacturer to tell me what bits to flip in a control that already has the capability to do what I needed it to do, if not a service call as well. Often times, these bills would have exceeded the value of the job, but it kept the customers needs met.

Now apparently recently Haas is requiring owners to send them $500 to unlock the parameter settings in the machines so minor changes can be made. If that ain't customer service gone in the toilet, I don't know what is.

 

[dkmc]

We are almost thru a job in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, started just before Xmas, about 1/2 the hours are on the dragon/programming dragon. Open loop Nema 23 steppers pushing 1 1/2” xs pipe. It miss cut one part so far- out of thousands.
This job is likely to be repeated a few more times as the customer came in for shop tour on Friday taking notes and stuff. Hundreds of thousands of dollars...
The same machine will sit for weeks and not be turned on. Why upgrade, and upgrade to what?

I dislike Mach’s interface and responsiveness more than most here because I use it and know what a Wego plc or windows ce boards mod bus feels like.

Bob, agree the analog control method on servos is far better if you are using real time feedback to and fro. These are systems way beyond Mach/Linux and most all the second tier all in one controllers. Our drill line runs like this on the feeds, responding to thrust and torque, each spindle has its own ce board control, each ce board tied to wego mothership plc, which is tied to a windows pc for hmi, feeding wego, and drag conveyors on infeed/out feed bunks.

I'm sorry that really doesn't sound like a hobby. You probably shouldn't be using Mach for that job
LMAO
Very impressive!

 

[DeadMahoDude]

One thing is clear, the folks that repair "industrial" CNC controls tend to bash the PC based controls fast and furious. Most likely because the PC based controls tend to make their services obsolete and un-needed. Some of them have regular customers and make regular stops at various shops visiting and reparing old machines like an old time doctor making house calls. Mention the word "retrofit" or "PC based control" to them and watch the reaction. It's like taking candy from a baby. Why would they want to fix the ailment when the repeat money comes from treating the symptoms? PC based motion control has been used for decades in medical devices in life critical applications.

Thing is that old controls are build from old, reliable big feature (µm semiconductors instead of nm nowadays) parts and have been working for 30+ years. Good luck getting that from nowadays junk PC hardware and proprietary Mach3. Then there is a fricking Windooze bloatware running underneath it, with all the associated pain, old Motorola 68k based control is just a few 100kB of CNC software, stored reliably in some EPROMs. Good luck if your SSD craps out in like 15years, cloning EPROMs is just a few minutes with a programmer.

And for those $4000 for Mach3, you could have bought like 5 sets of Mesa LinuxCNC cards, at least there, the software is open source, so fixing stuff in the future isn't that much of a pain.
And the machine truly runs close loop there, so a crash in software or missing stepper steps won't crash and harm your machine.

 

[dkmc]

And for those $4000 for Mach3, you could have bought like 5 sets of Mesa LinuxCNC cards, at least there, the software is open source, so fixing stuff in the future isn't that much of a pain.
And the machine truly runs close loop there, so a crash in software or missing stepper steps won't crash and harm your machine.

Yes, that is the exact reason I dislike Mach and suggested Linuxcnc.....I didn't mention Mesa hardware because availability is an issue with chip shortages.

 

[Strostkovy]

One thing is clear, the folks that repair "industrial" CNC controls tend to bash the PC based controls fast and furious. Most likely because the PC based controls tend to make their services obsolete and un-needed. Some of them have regular customers and make regular stops at various shops visiting and reparing old machines like an old time doctor making house calls. Mention the word "retrofit" or "PC based control" to them and watch the reaction. It's like taking candy from a baby. Why would they want to fix the ailment when the repeat money comes from treating the symptoms? PC based motion control has been used for decades in medical devices in life critical applications.

No way. PC based controls just have so much bloat and real time issues and random problems that a dedicated, purpose built control won't have. Running linux for a part of the machine handling file transfers and graphical displays is fine, but relying on it to handle motion and general machine operation is a colossal pain in the ass. We have several windows and linux based machines and the computers have been frequent issues. Older controls based on microcontrollers or very basic computers (no OS) perform far more reliably. Yes, they do lack things like a 3d view of the part, but that can be implemented separate from the motion control and UI stuff.

 

[mmurray70]

I agree with both sides here. There are some nice advantages of retrofitting, but can be a pain as well. Great if your interested in that stuff and can do the work yourself. If you need to depend on someone else to install, modify or repair it its not worth the trouble.

I love my Dynomotion Kflop controlled Fadal. This is the best possible retrofit IMO. All the motion is controlled by the dynomotion boards so your not depending on windows to run the machine. But it uses a regular windows computer for user interface, so you dont have to mess with linux. I think its awesome. And the boards are extremely versatile, can control most existing servo drives. Does take quite a bit of effort to set everything up though.

 

[dkmc]

Hey Garwood, a post popped up that you started and you're talking about "Hobby" cnc controls on a gear hobber.
Don't you know hobby cnc is STRICTLY BANNED on this site? Maybe it wasn't back in Nov '22?? Or maybe
it's OK when -you- need some help? You even mention Stepper motors!

Hypocrite.

Electronic gearing for gear hobber

I've picked up the David Brown gear hobber they used when they built the Mayflower, atleast it looks like it could be. This is in a package of running hobbers, so I'm not crushed if it can't be saved. It has suffered a lack of lube in it's nether regions and has major internal bearing/gear/shaft...

www.practicalmachinist.com

 

[madmachinst]

Anyways folks, back on topic for anyone that is interested, Mr Eldredge called me on his time ( can't say that about the big companies). About 1 hr ago and we were on the phone for about that long trying to figure out how to best fix the situation. He told me how to remove the computer unit and we came to an agreement for a decent price on a computer upgrade ( was still slightly more expensive than me having it done locally, but I want the reliability he has to offer) and they would also pay for return shipping of my computer ( controller), Motion planner ( PWM signal issue) and VFD so they can check it and see that everything works like it should. Machmotion has the potential for being a great product, we just need say the president or the COO who grew this thing since inception on top of things to end up with happy customers. BTW, if you end up with their Ethercat system there is nothing hobby about that. They even use all Yaskawa parts a far cry from steppers.