Comparing and identifying my two old Monarchs

[mf205i]

I have two Monarch lathes.

The cream colored lathe I got about 4 years ago and the consensus was that it is a model A, but I have come to question this. The gray lathe I got about a year ago and according to all of the information, drawings etc that I have collected, I am certain it is a model A. Both lathes are 14.5x34, plain bearing cone heads obviously of similar design and built by Monarch. But that is were most of the similarities end.
On the cream lathe, as compared to the gray lathe, every knob, lever, and hand wheel is bigger and much better finished with knurling etc. The bed is wider, deeper and much heavier with added bracing. The carriage is also larger and heavier with a large apron that is of a completely different control layout and design. The carriage rides on an inverted v and a flat as apposed to the grays double inverted v. The spindle thrust is carried by a ball thrust bearing as apposed to a washer and the cream lathe has a larger spindle bore. The cream lathe uses bronze bushings while the gray uses a lot of CI to steel fits. The cream lathe has a quick-change lever between the lead screw and the carriage drive. The cream one uses tapered gibs and has a factory installed taper attachment, properly doweled in place, and is complete with a telescoping cross feed screw. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that the cream lathe weighs a good 300lbs more. The fit and finish of the cream lathe is excellent while the grays are serviceable. Many of the main components are not interchangeable between the two lathes.
Well you get the idea. It is as if they were made by different companies. It seems that the gray one was designed and built to be serviceable but at the lowest possible cost, probably before or during WW1. In contrast the cream lathe is of very high quality and has every conceivable improvement, apparently without consideration of the cost. We joke that it must be the government model. I have not found another like it or any reference materials about it.
It would seem that I have examples of a shift in Monarchs marketing strategy from offering the best value on a good serviceable lathe, to offering the best lathe period.
So, what do you think the cream color lathe is? Do you think that Monarch would make such drastic changes and still call it a model A?
I would be curious to know how the lathes of the other A owners compare. Any and all information, comments, and opinions would be appreciated.
Yes, the joy and the frustration of preserving old iron.
Thank You, Mike

 

[jlegge]

It sounds to me that you have a pre WW1 model A and post WW1 model A (built in mid 1920's).

Monarch inherited their early lathe designs and they were considered cheap low quality lathes of the day. Monarch started refining their design starting around 1912 when they adopted a quick change gear box (licensed from flather). Around 1914 they lathes designed took a noticable change, and then agian in the early twenties when they changed from 4 Vee ways to the Vee and flat way design that all later lathes would have.

Monarch started to make drastic improvements in their lathe design starting with cone feed clutch apron in 1924, and then their helical headstocks in 1926 (or there abouts). Imporvements continued until the mid 1930's with the flame harden beds. Monarch still offered cone heads until 1938 or so, but after 1930, 99% of there production was helical head lathes.

 

[tubeandplate]

Mike and John-

Thanks for this thread...I have been intriqued with these dated Monarch differences especially as they relate to the Model A, one of which I am taking delivery of this weekend.

Mine is like your later one, Mike.

I hope this thread continues with more folks and Mike continuing to chime in with mechanical differences they find between the versions of these "same" models...

I think that would be helpful to me and other Model A owners, and shed some light into the design/history evolution as well.

Chris

 

[jlegge]

the history of these early lathes are mostly lost. Monarch did not have a lot of printed material about them, especially about design changes.

 

[mf205i]

Jlegge, I wanted to thank you for helping to ID my lathes. I was looking at the patents and was trying to figure out if the cream lathe has any part of the cone clutch improvement. It obviously doesn’t have the levers, but it does have the later double wall apron, interesting.
I just found your post on Monarchs history and it is well done and fascinating, It directly answered some of my questions, such as “A” indicates a 14 inch lathe. This information combined with the comments on this thread, and others, has been very useful in learning about my lathes and makes owning them just that much more interesting. I feel fortunate to have crossed paths with you. You are a great Historian for Monarch and your generosity is truly appreciated. So, once again, thank you.
Mike

 

[n2666s]

Mike; beautiful lathes; if you do decide to part the grey one?; let me know as I need a tailstock with the V+Flat system.
my "A" is missing its tailstock and although have had it several years am going to go ahead and get with the restore........without tailstock hoping one might be found!
serial number/lot number?; only number on the flat part of the near way is 86...........nothing else even with magnification!

several questions;
first,
does your A have wicks beneath its oilers?........have no oilers;only open holes filled with crud.
second;
blueprint folder on the Yahoo Monarch Group has been emptied .........still there but empty; so have no specs to go by
have you had to do any work on your QCGB?
any idea of the diameter/composition of the QC gearbox intermediate and upper shaft along with bearings?
3rd.
have you had your "threading plate" off?
removed mine and it seems the original color was BLACK! several coats of other colors including grey, creme and green
Mike thanks in advance for any help and others are very welcome to add their thoughts
Lou

I have two Monarch lathes.

The cream colored lathe I got about 4 years ago and the consensus was that it is a model A, but I have come to question this. The gray lathe I got about a year ago and according to all of the information, drawings etc that I have collected, I am certain it is a model A. Both lathes are 14.5x34, plain bearing cone heads obviously of similar design and built by Monarch. But that is were most of the similarities end.
On the cream lathe, as compared to the gray lathe, every knob, lever, and hand wheel is bigger and much better finished with knurling etc. The bed is wider, deeper and much heavier with added bracing. The carriage is also larger and heavier with a large apron that is of a completely different control layout and design. The carriage rides on an inverted v and a flat as apposed to the grays double inverted v. The spindle thrust is carried by a ball thrust bearing as apposed to a washer and the cream lathe has a larger spindle bore. The cream lathe uses bronze bushings while the gray uses a lot of CI to steel fits. The cream lathe has a quick-change lever between the lead screw and the carriage drive. The cream one uses tapered gibs and has a factory installed taper attachment, properly doweled in place, and is complete with a telescoping cross feed screw. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that the cream lathe weighs a good 300lbs more. The fit and finish of the cream lathe is excellent while the grays are serviceable. Many of the main components are not interchangeable between the two lathes.
Well you get the idea. It is as if they were made by different companies. It seems that the gray one was designed and built to be serviceable but at the lowest possible cost, probably before or during WW1. In contrast the cream lathe is of very high quality and has every conceivable improvement, apparently without consideration of the cost. We joke that it must be the government model. I have not found another like it or any reference materials about it.
It would seem that I have examples of a shift in Monarchs marketing strategy from offering the best value on a good serviceable lathe, to offering the best lathe period.
So, what do you think the cream color lathe is? Do you think that Monarch would make such drastic changes and still call it a model A?
I would be curious to know how the lathes of the other A owners compare. Any and all information, comments, and opinions would be appreciated.
Yes, the joy and the frustration of preserving old iron.
Thank You, Mike

 

[Shypoat]

I have one very similar to this. It has E-90 cast into it. Cool old iron. I’m thrilled to find this thread.

 

[Iron Works]

We have a Monarch Lathe with serial #5. Does that mean it's one of the first manufactured?

 

[texasgeartrain]

We have a Monarch Lathe with serial #5. Does that mean it's one of the first manufactured?

Not sure, but if you post pics of the lathe and any data tags, maybe we can identify.

 

[jlegge]

Not sure, but if you post pics of the lathe and any data tags, maybe we can identify.

Early Monarchs are stamped at the tailstock end with lot number and machine number. At some point they also added the model number as part as the machine number.

Other way of identifying your lathe is to measure the swing over the bed ways.

I posted this before.

9 and 11 are K or juniors
12 model E
14-16 model A
18-20 model B
22-30 model D

 

[Iron Works]

Not sure, but if you post pics of the lathe and any data tags, maybe we can identify.

I will take more photos of the Monarch today. There are multiple Lathes - some pre-civil war. Belt Driven. Here's the Serial number, a data plate and a fun shot of the Gisholt which sits right next to the Monarch and two Americans.

 

[jlegge]

I will take more photos of the Monarch today. There are multiple Lathes - some pre-civil war. Belt Driven. Here's the Serial number, a data plate and a fun shot of the Gisholt which sits right next to the Monarch and two Americans.

Can you take a picture of the overall machine? Especially the tail stock end of the machine. The stamping on the ways doesn't make sense, it is almost like it was cut off.

 

[jlegge]

We have a Monarch Lathe with serial #5. Does that mean it's one of the first manufactured?

No, Monarch did not start to use serial number until around 1927 and they started with 2000. Why 2000 is anyone's guess. Old machines with serial numbers start with machine model and 4 or 5 digit number. Before this Monarch used lot number and machine number - Lot 234 machine 5 or Lot 234-5. And usually there is an "Inspected by" stamping. This is between the front V and the flat way.

 

[Iron Works]

I will take more photos of the Monarch today. There are multiple Lathes - some pre-civil war. Belt Driven. Here's the Serial number, a data plate and a fun shot of the Gisholt which sits right next to the Monarch and two Americans.

 

[Iron Works]

There are no other data tags other than the Monarch displaying patent 1906.