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Conventional Wisdom wrong again

The unions were strong enough to halt production, had they cared about what they were assembling so much, they could've demanded better parts and designs. Worrying about this years pay increase is very short sighted when the product is crap and won't keep the company alive long enough to see the pension plan you marched the line for.

Blame it on the top. That's the left mentality. Just like blaming the prez for all the congresses wastes and pork projects... Hell, it's everyone elses fault. Always is. Right?

So Bush Sr gets voted out of office for a single tax increase, and the very next term the congress and president vote themselves pay raises. Ain't that some shit... Who's looking out for the little guys? You've gotta stand up for yourself.

Commanders can't get anything done without the grunts. If the crap was bad enough, they could've refused to assemble it. You think the Execs wouldn't listen if their 20% labor savings on casting engine blocks was met with "we won't install them in the chassis unless they're made here." They'd be forced to. But that's not how the unions used their power. They wanted more money for themselves.
 
The adversarial union vs management dichotomy is what it is. I'm not saying its the
best situation in the world, but complaining that the unions didn't do a very good
job of managing the company just plain doesn't make any sense.

It wasn't the union's responsibility to hold managments' collective d%cks.

Wasn't their company to run. Don't complain that they didn't.

Jim
 
I'm not complaining. But don't say it's not the workers fault when their company fails in the end. No one said anyone had to work there.

I get to pay for those people to go to school. If my business fails, no one will give me money for another job. I'm not crying about it either.

I just don't see how you can bitch piss and moan that we're not buying the junk that keeps these guys employed, but when we don't we still get to pay them to find other work... That's not a labor/management dichotomy - that's big business not being held accountable for their own practices.

If you don't have faith in the management, leave. If you have faith in them and they sink the ship - you made your bed.
 
The unions were strong enough to halt production, had they cared about what they were assembling so much, they could've demanded better parts and designs. Worrying about this years pay increase is very short sighted when the product is crap and won't keep the company alive long enough to see the pension plan you marched the line for.

Blame it on the top. That's the left mentality. Just like blaming the prez for all the congresses wastes and pork projects... Hell, it's everyone elses fault. Always is. Right?

So Bush Sr gets voted out of office for a single tax increase, and the very next term the congress and president vote themselves pay raises. Ain't that some shit... Who's looking out for the little guys? You've gotta stand up for yourself.

Commanders can't get anything done without the grunts. If the crap was bad enough, they could've refused to assemble it. You think the Execs wouldn't listen if their 20% labor savings on casting engine blocks was met with "we won't install them in the chassis unless they're made here." They'd be forced to. But that's not how the unions used their power. They wanted more money for themselves.


apparently you're forgetting the multiple times when union hands did exactly that.....remember the GM strike in '98 (one example of many) over managements attempt at outsourcing product to mexico? I sure do, it was one of the times I lost my job over outsourcing (working for a tier II supplier, in, ironically enough, a non-union shop). Do I blame the union guys? HELL NO! It was managements decision to go for the cheaper option. Imagine that, union guys going out on strike to protect their jobs, as well as non-union jobs too....honestly, I'm so sick to death of hearing how 'those damn union guys wrecked everything. damn 30 buck an hour floor sweepers' etc etc....get a grip, that crap is so lost in the 70's....check the newest GM-UAW contract where floor sweepers start at 8 bucks an hour....check the time when the hockey players union offered to take a PAY CUT to continue playing, and management locked 'em out....was it the union guys fault when Ford cheapied out on a 5 buck/unit upgrade that would've prevented a serious rollover problem in the BroncoII? I'm betting that particular engineering/cost analysis report never made it down to the shop floor, but don't worry, the class action lawsuit was all the union's fault, right?.....and just FYI, I worked in a company where management pulled a proprietary idea for product out of their a*s, didn't engineer sh*t, and when we, the union guys, out on the shop floor approached management with our concerns, were told by the owner (and I quote) "you guys got 2 choices....run the parts, or I close the door and retire right now"...exactly how was it our fault that EVERY SINGLE CUSTOMER who bought the parts was unhappy?
 
You chose to make the parts, and chose to keep working there.

And knowing managements lack of concern for safety, you still bought another ford.

When I was in college the second time around, I was in class with a guy who was being retrained under the displaced workers program. They had to train the mexicans to do their job. It's not their fault, but it's not mine either. How come I still get to pay for it?
 
You chose to make the parts, and chose to keep working there.

And knowing managements lack of concern for safety, you still bought another ford.

When I was in college the second time around, I was in class with a guy who was being retrained under the displaced workers program. They had to train the mexicans to do their job. It's not their fault, but it's not mine either. How come I still get to pay for it?


yep, I chose to keep my job....again I ask, how is it the union's fault?
yep, every auto manufacturer I know of has done something underhanded to cut costs, yet I still choose to drive.....and it's the union's fault how?
as to why you get to keep paying for it....ask the politicos, who, in collusion with management, think free-trade at any cost is our best option, think selling or giving state secrets to our enemies is a good plan, think rolling back 100 years of progress for working conditions for the working man is a good idea, and yet again, I ask, how is this the unions fault? oh, yeah, them dirty union b*stards, all they want is to destabilise our country by all those unrealistic demands for fair compensation for a fair days work, and maybe a little something set aside for retirement.....much better to plunder a company so 1/2 dozen corporate whores can get a golden parachute when the company goes down in flames instead
 
You got too hung up on the union bit of my issue. It's everyone's fault. Management and labor combined. Labor could've walked away.

The part was unsafe, so walk away. It's called integrity. People sold out other peoples safety for the managements demand for higher margins to save their own jobs. Now those jobs were eliminated because sales are down. How is it my fault? Why is the union not to blame when the company gets sued and people die? They knew there was an issue and did nothing. That wouldn't hold any salt in court if you were being sued for negligence. Knowingly making a product with a faulty design is punishable in court, but you did it to save your job. That doesn't make it right.

Even so, I still get to pay for retraining.
 
Labor could've walked away.

Even so, I still get to pay for retraining.

Walk away?

They probably would have if another equal or better opportunity existed. People talk about idealistic worlds but continuing income streams trump ideals for most families. Bread on the table, pay the rent, heat the house, gas in the car?

I don't know what gov't agency is paying for the retraining you are talking about You should be asking them why you are expected to pay for it. We have no idea.
 
Well, if food on the table, gas in the tank, and blood on your hands is how you see fit to live your life - I have no issue with that. When your job is eliminated because of lawsuits and failing sales of garbage, I have no issue with that either.

When my taxes are used to retrain you because your company failed and now my neighborhood crime rate goes up because we don't have the taxes to pay our police force. I take issue with that!

But then people go crying about how management failed them. No personal accountability.

I've been laid off. I've also quit based on moral objection to what my employer was doing to make a buck. I would rather work for less than steal from someone else. It's a personal decision and I don't expect anyone to give me a handout because of it. Just don't expect me to endorse your pleading "I had to" because you didn't have the courage to do the right thing.
 
You got too hung up on the union bit of my issue. It's everyone's fault. Management and labor combined. Labor could've walked away....

..But then people go crying about how management failed them. No personal accountability.


"On the subject of labor and productivity, Marvin Runyon has a unique viewpoint. He spent nearly thirty years running Ford Motor Company plants before taking on the task of establishing Nissan's first assembly plant in the United States, in Smyrna, Tennessee. A slight man with a shock of white hair and a low-key manner, Runyon is steeped in the lore of the auto business. He has seen everything from both the U.S. and Japanese sides. On a recent tour of the Smyrna plant, he was obviously proud that it is equaling the quality and productivity levels of the home company, proving - as he said - that American workers are as good as any in the world, when properly organized and managed."

Clyde V. Prestowitz, Jr.
"Trading Places: How We Are Giving Our Future To Japan And How To Reclaim It"
pp. 366-367


"Early in the 1980's, while U.S. industry was searching for excellence, along came Honda. In late 1982, just three years after the company started manufacturing motorcycles in the United States, Honda became the first Japanese company to manufacture automobiles on American soil.
When the auto plant officially opened its doors in Marysville, Ohio, the world's leading motorcycle manufacturer was well on its way to becoming recognized as a front-runner in the automobile industry, which was quite a feat for a company that didn't produce a single car until the early 1960's.
By the time the plant debuted, Honda motorcycles and automobiles had become accepted products in America. During this same period, the quality of U.S. automobiles was deteriorating at an alarming rate and consumers expressed their concern about buying an American-made Honda. The message voiced across much of the nation was: "U.S. labor isn't capable of making cars of the same quality as the Japanese." Many said they would only buy those Hondas made in Japan. Even dealers complained that the anticipated inferior quality of workmanship at the new plant would ruin their businesses.
In spite of these protests, the new plant went into production using a labor pool from small, rural communities in central Ohio. Most of the workers had farming backgrounds; only a few had worked in manufacturing. When the first Accords rolled off the assembly line, industry analysts eagery gathered to inspect these early models.

The overwhelming consensus was that the Ohio-produced automobiles had, indeed, equaled the quality of those cars produced in Japan. Today the quality workmanship of Honda's American-made cars is widely accepted as the epitome of excellence.

The Honda of America Manufacturing, Inc. (HAM) plant has become a showcase for all U.S. manufacturing companies, and today testifies that American workers are fully capable of producing outstanding workmanship. To the surprise of many who have visited the HAM plant, the levels of automation and technology are not so different from what exists at other modern automotive factories. It is not the machines but the people who make the difference in quality and productivity. The plant's performance serves as a reminder that America's work force does have the ability to excel in a world marketplace....It is the Honda Way that has created a working environment in which people take pride in their jobs. There are no adversarial us-them relationships between management and labor. Instead, there is an atmosphere in which people become involved in their work, and teamwork thrives. People care about the welfare of the company because they know the company cares about them"


Robert L. Shook
"Honda: An American Success Story"



"Tony DeJesus, head of the UAW local at General Motors' Toyota plant in Fremont, addressed the management issue more bluntly in an interview with "Business Week": "Here we find the executives make sacrifices before asking concessions from the workers. We had no confidence of this under previous management."

Clyde V. Prestowitz, Jr.
"Trading Places: How We Are Giving Our Future To Japan And How To Reclaim It"
p. 367


"In Japan, when a company has to absorb a sudden economic hardship, such as a 25 percent decline in sales, the sacrificial pecking order is firmly set. First the corporate dividends are cut. Then the salaries and the bonuses of top management are reduced. Next, management salaries are trimmed from the top to the middle of the hierarchy. Lastly, the rank and file are asked to accept pay cuts or a reduction in the work force through attrition or voluntary discharge. In the United States, a typical firm would probably do the opposite under similar circumstances....As long as management is quick to take credit for a firm's success but equally swift to blame its workers for its failures, no surefire remedy for low productivity can be expected in American manufacturing and service industries."

Yoshi Tsurumi
American Management Has Missed the Point - The Point Is Management Itself
The Dial, September 1981


Tsurumi quotes "one Japanese plant manager who turned an unproductive U.S. factory into a profitable venture in less than three months" as saying: "' It is simple. You treat American workers as human beings with ordinary human needs and values. They react like human beings.' Once the superficial, adversarial relationship between managers and workers is eliminated, they are more likely to pull together during difficult times and to defend their common interest in the firm's health."

Rafael Aguayo
Dr. Deming: The American Who Taught The Japanese About Quality
p. 46


Steve
 
http://www.deed.state.mn.us/dw/ford_info.htm

You take a buyout, and you still get a handout here.

Ford was supposed to be closing the St Paul plant next year, but due to the fuel costs rising they're expecting the smaller trucks sales to increase and it might stay open after all.

I have complete faith in the competence of US workers. What we lack is the ability to remain united as a country, and the everyone for themselves attitude is flushing the works. We don't need protectionist government tactics, we need citizens who look out for one another in what they purchase and produce. I would buy an American car if they existed at the same quality and features as my german one. They don't.

Somewhere along the line designed obsolescence became paramount to reliability.
 
Fasto,

You take that wrong. Limited production, of course you can expect to pay too much. Honda Civic, major model, you would not expect it, but they tell you you will or you won't get it, until someone comes up with an inferior, sometimes, after market replacement.

Gene,

Actually, I drove Fords till I was looking for a work car, many years ago. Couple buddies at a large Ford dealership had taken in an 80 Audi 5000 Diesel, I think it was 84 or 85, Audi was accused of the "uncontrolled acceleration", the cars took off on their own, BIG story at the time. Audi prices went way down hill. Papers with mine said it was 14,905 new, bought it for 1400.

Liked it, Diesel got me 33 MPG, Diesel cost 15 cents less per gallon, back then, and it was not a tiny car, about 2900 pounds.

Interesting that Toyota has gotten into an "uncontrolled acceleration" investigation announced today in the Trib, with the Tacoma pickup. One of them interviewed, and who seem s to have instigated it is a mechanic, I think, who swears that he is not the usual NTSB foil who they can claim slipped their foot off the brake onto the gas.

Toyota Tacomas might be very cheap in the next week or 2.

Like my Audis. Don't find them any more expensive to repair, and I can't do my own work anymore, than any Ford or Chevy or Buick, Toy, Datsun, whatever.
Had a 79, 80, 81, 82, 85, 87 and now a 90. Would like to find something about 2000, price being right, just because.

The girl who "married into money", BTW, got herself a nice car, whether she stayed his wife or not.

Everybody says that this or that brand is garbage should go to an independent shop and look at what comes in. ALL brands come in shot to hell. And just about in the same ratio. So many Fords, so many Chevys, so many Toys, so many Hondas.

All of them are machines, some get less care than others, oil change wise, some don't last the length of an oil change.

Timing belt breaks and all your valves go to hell, that's a minimum thou.

MY car, my 90, hell, I'll sell it for 400 scrap, go buy another.

And, too, Gene, for a while I have been trying to find out if ARAMCO IS the largest oil company in the world, if EXXON really is a piker.

Far as I can find out, ARAMCO had 168 billion in sales in 2006.

EXXON had about 400 billion, and 40 billion profit then, too.

ARAMCO is becoming an integrated company, refining is in their future business plan, more so than it is now. As the US has reduced refining capacity, offshore companies are refining oil and sending us refined product.

Good in a way. Companies don't want to build them, period, here, particularly in anyone's backyard. If the capacity were higher, they wouldn't be able to BS the country into thinking it was a supply and demand problem, they just can't make it fast enough.

I posted links to articles that had EXXON say that they work from the profit base, reduce supply so as to keep profit per unit up rather then on a less per gallon, make it up on quantity.

Hell, this is a last night post carried over. Gotta see what was said since .

Cheers,

George
 
We don't need protectionist government tactics, we need citizens who look out for one another in what they purchase and produce.

http://www.ita.doc.gov/media/Publications/pdf/steel2000.pdf

Japan’s major structural problem is its noncompetitive steel market. The key symptoms of the Japanese steel
market suggesting a noncompetitive market that can distort Japanese steel trade abroad are as follows:
• Production shares among the top five Japanese producers have remained virtually unchanged for
twenty-five years. While the remarkable stability of production shares among Japan’s top steel
producers has caught the attention of Japan’s Fair Trade Commission (JFTC), the Japanese government
has not taken any further action to address concerns about apparent coordination among the major
producers. The JFTC noted that despite the fact that total industry production levels fluctuated routinely
from 1975 to 1992, “each share among the five companies has hardly fluctuated.”1
• High and stable domestic prices to major steel customers in Japan have been another outcome of the
apparent coordination of steel production. Industry data show that the prices paid by large steel
consumers in Japan remained high and remarkably stable over a long period and in the years leading up
to and including the export surge to the United States. These numbers support industry reports that
producers placed a priority on maintaining domestic price stability, even at the expense of curtailed
domestic shipments.
• There is a history of international price discrimination between domestic and export markets. As
1999 ended, Japanese steel products were subject to ten antidumping duty orders or undertakings and
eight ongoing investigations in a number of countries including Brazil, Canada, Mexico, and the United
States.


The insulated steel market in Japan is made possible by a variety of import barriers. Without these barriers,
it would not be possible for the steel industry to fix production shares and high prices at home. For
example, Japanese producers’ influence over the distribution of steel insulates the Japanese market from
international competition. Other barriers, including procedures for product certification, can add years to a
foreign producer’s attempt to enter the Japanese market.


At the time of the reported decision to free up production for export, Asia was the most likely market for
the planned export drive. However, when primary Asian markets collapsed, Japanese producers redirected
their exports to the United States. Hot-rolled steel imports into the U.S. market increased 1,000 percent
from 1996 to 1998.5 One of the most distinctive features of these export sales was the extent of pricecutting
that occurred, as described in industry reports.6 Prices of exported hot-rolled sheet from Japan fell
below the depreciation of the yen during this same period.7 Meanwhile, high domestic prices of major
products sold to large customers held steady from 1996 to 1998 despite deteriorating home market demand.
Industry analysts at the time noted that revenues from domestic market sales were a key to the Japanese
producers’ ability to sustain low prices in export markets.



The rapid growth in imports coupled with the drop in prices hit many U.S. steel companies hard. During
the second half of 1998, a number of U.S. companies saw their sales drop sharply.


North Star BHP’s order
books dropped from 227,000
metric tons (MT) to less than
55,000 MT in a period of
less than six weeks.2
• In September 1998,
Wheeling-Pittsburgh saw
143,000 MT vanish from its
order books in a ten-day
period.3
• From November 1998 to
February 1999,
Northwestern Steel’s
business fell off by 40
percent. According to Fred
Rocchio, president and
CEO, the impact of the
import surge became
evident in late 1998 whenorders for beams and
channels “just up and died.”
Even after the company
drastically slashed prices to
match those of imports, it
was forced to close its wire
and wire rod operations and
lay off 320 steel workers.4
• Acme Steel saw 63 percent
of its order book disappear
in two months—to a level
below the practical running
capacity of the blast
furnaces.5
• Six firms—Acme Steel,
Geneva Steel, Gulf States
Steel, Laclede Steel,
Qualitech Steel, and World
Class Processing—were
driven into bankruptcy,
typically citing the increase in steel imports and the fall in prices as one of the reasons they filed for
protection under Chapter 11.

Thousands of steel employees were laid off in 1998 and 1999.6 Throughout the fall of 1998, steel firms
shut down lines and cut back their workforces.

U.S. Steel’s Fairless Works laid off 300 of its
850 workers the day before Thanksgiving.7
• In December, Bethlehem Steel laid off 650
employees, while Northwestern Steel laid off 250
employees.8
• At Weirton Steel, 747 workers spent their
holidays in the unemployment line.9

Jim, explain how "citizens who look out for one another in what they purchase and produce" will fix this situation when 99% of the people here, yourself included, don't know what is going on and instead blame America first.


Steve
 
How does that contradict me?

That the Japan foundries were in collusion doesn't change the fact that US buyers weren't buying domestically themselves. I buy US steel exclusively when I can, and if I have to, Canadian (we can't get some channel sizes that's made here - I've asked).

10 year old data also doesn't take into account what the current lack of supply is doing to our prices.
 
Holy Cow! 77 making such a comeback!!! I don't expect to see ANY "maybe it ain't the Union's fault" posts, here. Thank you!!!

Never saw you in any other post as a pro-union man. Welcome, Brother.

No matter what you say, Shaper ain't gonna buy it. The Union is the Devil. Kills companies.

Seems most mfgs. that set up plants here accept Unions, but the Japanese don't, though they are Unionized IN Japan. However, it seems that the Japanese mfgs treat their employees well enough that they don't really NEED to have Unions. Sony TV plant near her, I hear, has watchers in the ceiling looking down to catch slackers, I don't like that.

Had the US mfgs, 125 years ago, treated the workers with any dignity, we would not NEED Unions, either. Today corps will screw the employees out of millions in supposedly paid in benefits, part of their pay that is supposed to have been in a "lock box".

Lots of times, and with major companies, all them bucks have vanished, gone to the management in Golden Parachutes.

Gene, I can understand. He can't get into a Union.

Small shop owners, where is the threat from a Union shop? Their operators get 30 bucks, you can sure as hell undercut their rates. The job should be yours, if you can handle it.

Union threatens you when your best machinist says the shop down the street is hiring at twice your pay, and a medical and retirement plan is also in the works.

Anybody want to start a Poll?

How much do you make a year, take home, as a Small Shop, not your gross, your own take home? You paid for the machines, all the stock, all the workup to make the part, all the other stuff you gotta do to get the part from beginning to end.

I wouldn't like to be in your shoes. Back to the Boss I mentioned a long time ago who would like to go have a beer with the guys but didn't have 2 nickles to rub together, paid the men, had NO profit at the end of the week or the month, BUT, was STILL running his OWN shop.

Cheers,

George
 
George, I agree with what you say about unions not being necessary if the management respects and appreciates the labor. The part you seem to ignore is that we don't live in an age of bondage and indenture. We can choose who we work for AT WILL. If I didn't like the pay, I would go somewhere else. Now I am a one man shop, but I don't generally bid work against other job shops - I have a core market of customers who want what I can deliver and they come to me.

The issue I have with unions is the adversarial relationship that results between management and labor because of them. Also, the protection is abused in the unions I've worked with (never been in a position to need to join one - my father in law was in one most of his life and I don't see him as evil ;) ). So management is overpaying people they cannot fire. How is that good for anyone but the slackers? Sticking the screws to management results in lower profits and the need to cut OUR jobs to make ends meet. How can you say that unions benefit the company when that's the current state of them? We're not living in the industrial revolution anymore - stop applying those workplace conditions to current times.
 
"The issue I have with unions is the adversarial relationship that results between management and labor because of them."

STOP right there and READ what you wrote.

Read it real well and then explain to me why the question
is not constructed this way:

The issue I have with management is the adversarial realationship that results between management and labor because of them."

Unions do not cause an adversarial relationship.

Unions EXIST because of a pre-existing adversarial relationships.
They are the effect, not the cause.

Jim
 
Unions do not cause an adversarial relationship.

Unions EXIST because of a pre-existing adversarial relationships.
They are the effect, not the cause.

Thank you buddy.

"I went first to the glass-works of South Jersey, where I saw little children working all night in eleven-hour shifts, carrying heavy trays of red-hot glass bottles. Other children worked at the same tasks in the blazing heat of summer, and sometimes they fainted and had their eyes burned out by hot glass. When the State child-labor inspector came, he was courteous enough to notify the superintendent of the glass-works in advance, and so the under-age children were collected in the passageway through which fresh air was blown to the furnaces. I told the story of one little Italian boy who had to walk several miles on the railroad-track to his home after his all-night labors. He fell asleep from exhaustion on the way and the train ran over him. I submitted this article to "Everybody's," who sent one of their editors to check up my facts. I recall one remark in his report, which was that he could not see that the little boys in the glass-factories were any worse off than those who sold newspapers on the streets of New York. My answer was that this was not a reason for altering the glass-article; it was a reason for adding an article about the news-boys.

Meantime I was investigating the steel-mills of Alleghany County. I spent a long time at this task, tracing out some of the ramifications of graft in the politics and journalism of Pittsburgh. The hordes of foreign labor recruited abroad and crowded into these mills were working, some of them twelve hours a day for seven days in the week, and were victims of every kind of oppression and extortion. An elaborate system of spying crushed out all attempt at organization. I talked with the widow of one man, a Hungarian, who had had the misfortune to be caught with both legs under the wheels of one of the gigantic travelling cranes. In order to save his legs it would have been necessary to take the crane to pieces, which would have cost several thousand dollars; so they ran over his legs and cut them off and paid him two hundred dollars damages.

The lobbyists of the packers had their way in Washington; the meat inspection bill was deprived of all its sharpest teeth, and in that form Roosevelt accepted it and prepared to let the subject drop. I was bitterly disappointed, the more so because he had made no move about the matter which lay nearest my heart. I had made a remark about "The Jungle" which was found amusing--that "I aimed at the public's heart and by accident I hit it in the stomach." It is a fact that I had not been nearly so interested in the "condemned meat industry" as in something else. To me the diseased meat graft had been only one of a hundred varieties of graft which I saw in that inferno of exploitation. My main concern had been for the fate of the workers, and I realized with bitterness that I had been made into a "celebrity," not because the public cared anything about the sufferings of these workers, but simply because the public did not want to eat tubercular beef.

I had objected to Roosevelt that he was giving all his attention to the subject of meat-inspection, and none to the subject of labor-inspection. His answer was that he had power to remedy the former evils, but no power to remedy the latter. I tried to persuade him to agitate the question and obtain the power; but I tried in vain. "The Jungle" caused the whitewashing of some packing-house walls, and it furnished jobs for a dozen or two lady-manicurists, but it left the wageslaves in those huge brick packing-boxes exactly where they were before. Ten years later the war broke out, and as these wage-slaves became restive, an investigation was made. Here are a few paragraphs describing the adventures of the Federal investigators:

The first four homes brought expressions of horror from the women of the party, dark, insanitary, pest-ridden rooms and foodless kitchens.

Mrs. Belbine Skupin. Working in the yards. The six Skupin children in their home at 4819 Laflin Street, hugging the stove and waiting for "mother to return." "I didn't think such things existed outside the books," said one indignant young lady visitor, Miss Walsh.

In one home, seven children found. Youngest, a baby of fourteen months; oldest, a boy of eight years. Baby "mothered" by girl of four. Father and mother work in stock-yards. Children had no shoes or stockings and flimsy underwear. No food in house except pot of weak coffee, loaf of rye bread and kettle containing mess of cabbage. But in the basement was a 'conservation' card, bearing the motto "Don't waste food."

Upton Sinclair
The Brass Check
published by the author, 1919
http://www.teleread.org/brasscheck.htm#ch9




Steve
 
How does that contradict me?

That the Japan foundries were in collusion doesn't change the fact that US buyers weren't buying domestically themselves. I buy US steel exclusively when I can, and if I have to, Canadian (we can't get some channel sizes that's made here - I've asked).

I buy American whenever I can and I'm proud of you for doing the same, but there is no other way that I know of to turn this ship around as long as people only care about price except through tariffs which worked from 1789 until we replaced them with the income tax and "free trade". If you have a better solution let me know.



Steve
 
"The issue I have with unions is the adversarial relationship that results between management and labor because of them."

STOP right there and READ what you wrote.

Read it real well and then explain to me why the question
is not constructed this way:

The issue I have with management is the adversarial realationship that results between management and labor because of them."

Unions do not cause an adversarial relationship.

Unions EXIST because of a pre-existing adversarial relationships.
They are the effect, not the cause.

Jim


Labor comes second to management. Without management, there is no product, there is no plant, and there are no jobs for the union.

Hate to say it, but it's becoming increasingly clear that the Union types in this thread are constantly looking for someone to point the finger at and cannot accept even the slightest responsibility for being part of the problem themselves.
 








 
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