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Conventional Wisdom wrong again

If workers could be in a totally cooperative relationship with management what would be the point of having a union?



Then we have union thugs and goons, such as teamsters attacking "scabs" on the highway.

Gene

True that management and the unions should try to cooperate the best they can for the sake of everyone involved in any company, unfortunately,that is difficult by the nature of the situation.
However,management has historicialy been the kings of thugs and goons.(mining companies,Henry Ford,etc...)

Respectfully,Jeff
 
I can say this...the ones that measure up, AND want to be compensated for an extremely sensitive, life-risking job, go union....the ones who don't measure up, or want to risk their lives for peanuts, go non-union.

To summarise

Union Rigger = Competent & Careful
Non-Union Rigger = Incompetent & a risk taker

Thanks for the good info. If I ever need one I'll be sure to get a union one.

BTW, how do you screen these guys before you let them in to the union? It would be horrible if one of these "Darwin Award" guys got in.:):):):)

http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/
 
Fasto,

.............I have been trying to find out if ARAMCO IS the largest oil company in the world, if EXXON really is a piker.

Far as I can find out, ARAMCO had 168 billion in sales in 2006.

EXXON had about 400 billion, and 40 billion profit then, too.

ARAMCO is becoming an integrated company, refining is in their future business plan, more so than it is now. As the US has reduced refining capacity, offshore companies are refining oil and sending us refined product.

George

Try this link.

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Aramco

ARAMCO has been a dominat producer of crude for decades which has been delivered and sold as bulk crude primarily. Others that handle or refine the product add their profit/costs including oil future speculators.

ARAMCO (Saudi Arabia) is the biggest crude producer of all the OPEC countries and maybe others also.

I found this data from the CIA World Factbook on oil production, the Saudi's are the largest crude producer.

www.education.yahoo.com/reference/factbook/countrycompare/oil/1a.html
 
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"The Russians are sinking $3 to $5 Billion into new steel mills here. The Indians are building the first new integrated mill in the US in something like 30 years, for over $3 Billion. The Germans are building another new steel mill in Alabama- another $4 Billion or so.
The Chinese are building refrigerator factories in South Carolina, Driveline factories in Michigan, Solar Collector factories in California.
The Japanese are building auto plants all over the USA- as are the Koreans, the Germans, and, it is rumored, soon Fiat will return."

And the downside to this is? People bitch about outsourcing to china and now because they want to do some business in the us? Am i the only one that thinks good for these companies that want to invest here....and spend their money here and create jobs here.

Unions......I don't agree or disagree with them. Sometimes they have their place, but not in most privately owned companies. IMO of course...

If people were "responsible" and were held "accountable" for their actions there wouldn't be a need for a union and everyone would be in way better shape in more than one way. ( i know, these are big words). If your company is screwing you over find another job. Eventually they will be left with a crappy work force and go under. Stand up for yourself and quit letting (sorry, expecting) others do it for you! It really is that simple...and for goodness sake save your money for when the time comes that you can no longer work, assuming you can think that far ahead.

My shop is union sort of......My foot in your butt if you are lazy. I will keep the good ones, pay them and treat them well and send the rest to run the fry machine at burger king..
 
To summarise

Union Rigger = Competent & Careful
Non-Union Rigger = Incompetent & a risk taker

Thanks for the good info. If I ever need one I'll be sure to get a union one.

BTW, how do you screen these guys before you let them in to the union? It would be horrible if one of these "Darwin Award" guys got in.:):):):)

http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/

not entirely accurate in summary, to be fair, some of the non-union riggers are eminently competent, however, for whatever reason (usually, blind anti-union prejudice) they're willing to risk their own lives drawing half the scale paid union riggers (literally)....the major difference between union riggers, and our non-union counterparts being: most clients and insurance companies would rather KNOW the riggers are competent, rather than HOPE they are
as far as our screening process, it's pretty intensive, and getting moreso every day....from the initial interview at the union hall, to a vetting process out on the jobsite with their peers (you can bet before we send a guy up in the grid to hang points for a show, a potential new rigger spends a serious amount of time ground rigging in support of the up-riggers), training by the union, testing by the union (with it's attendant VERY tight conditions and standards), to the newest certifications by ESTA....
 
I sure hope it's true that all those other countries are building factories and investing in the
U.S. as mentioned previously in this thread. I would prefer that it be U.S. companies but,
someone needs to.

Jeff
 
"If people were "responsible" and were held "accountable" for their actions there wouldn't be a need for a union and everyone would be in way better shape in more than one way. ( i know, these are big words). If your company is screwing you over find another job. Eventually they will be left with a crappy work force and go under."

Seekins,

Fine as far as it goes, but you got to remember that most Unions arose in "mill towns", whether they be coal mining towns, steel making towns, textile centers, you couldn't move to get more wages or ANY benefits, they all paid the same, minimal, and they all ran their business as serfdoms.

Your shop, your foot in my butt would result in my fist in your mouth. You are one arrogant SOB, aren't you? I seriously doubt you pay the good ones well. You might consider it overgenerous, taking money out of your pocket.


"My shop is union sort of......My foot in your butt if you are lazy. I will keep the good ones, pay them and treat them well and send the rest to run the fry machine at burger king."

Actually, you are kind of the people who CAUSED A DEMAND for unions. Screw the employees.

Ah, well.

Cheers,

George
 
Jim Rozen, 77Ironhead, Machinehead61,and Colorado Boy, Thank you for telling it like is!

Jeff.

Thank you for joining in. The history of management-labor relations is pretty interesting. One of the most famous was brought to national attention by Upton Sinclair when the corporate owned newspapers refused to carry the story. The Ludlow massacre was a prime example of what depths the owners of capital would go to in order to control labor and secure their profits:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

"As was typical in the industry of that day, miners were paid by tons of coal mined and not reimbursed for "dead work," such as laying rails, timbering, and shoring the mines to make them operable. Given the intense pressure to produce, mine safety was often given short shrift. More than 1,700 miners died in Colorado from 1884 to 1912, a rate that was between 2 and 3.5 times the national average during those years. Furthermore, the miners felt they were being short-changed on the weight of the coal they mined, arguing that the scales used for paying them were different from those used for coal customers. Miners challenging the weights risked being dismissed.

Most miners also lived in "company towns," where homes, schools, doctors, clergy, and law enforcement were provided by the company, as well as stores offering a full range of goods that could be paid for in company currency, scrip. However, this became an oppressive environment in which law focused on enforcement of increasing prohibitions on speech or assembly by the miners to discourage union-building activity. Also, under pressure to maintain profitability, the mining companies steadily reduced their investment in the town and its amenities while increasing prices at the company store so that miners and their families experienced worsening conditions and higher costs. Colorado's legislature had passed laws to improve the condition of the mines and towns, including the outlawing of the use of scrip, but these laws were poorly enforced."

Baldwin-Felts had a reputation for aggressive strike breaking. Agents shone searchlights on the tent villages at night and randomly fired into the tents, occasionally killing and maiming people. They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt-Browning machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families could seek shelter.

During the battle, four women and eleven children had been hiding in a pit beneath one tent, where they were trapped when the tent above them was set on fire. Two of the women and all of the children suffocated. These deaths became a rallying cry for the UMWA, who called the incident the "Ludlow Massacre."

The following individuals died in the massacre and are listed on the Ludlow Monument:

John Bartolotti. Age: 45 Yrs.
Charlie Costa. Age: 31 Yrs.
Fedelina Costa. Age: 27 Yrs.
Lucy Costa. Age: 4 Yrs.
Onafrio Costa. Age: 6 Yrs.
James Fyler. Age: 43 Yrs.
Cloriva Pedregone. Age: 4 Yrs.
Rodgerlo Pedregone. Age: 6 Yrs.
Frank Petrucci. Age: 4 Mo.
Joe Petrucci. Age: 4½ Yrs.
Lucy Petrucci. Age: 2½ Yrs.
Frank Rubino. Age: 23 Yrs.
William Snyder Jr.. Age: 11 Yrs.
Louis Tikas. Age: 30 Yrs.
Eulala Valdez. Age: 8 Yrs.
Elvira Valdez. Age: 3 Mo.
Mary Valdez. Age: 7 Yrs.
Patria Valdez. Age: 37 Yrs



http://www.teleread.org/brasscheckfull.htm


"The greatest atrocity of the strike was the fact, previously set forth, that the state militia in the coal-fields had been recruited from strike-breakers and Baldwin-Felts gunmen. The facts had been refused, even to the state legislature; until finally the legislature appointed a committee to wait upon the militia general and not leave his office until they got the roster of the guard. So it was disclosed that in Company A of the state guard there had been one hundred and twenty-two members, and all but three of them coal-company employes, receiving the pay of coal-companies while they wore the uniform and carried the flag of the state!

It was an incredible prostitution of government; and what did the newspapers do with the story? What did the Associated Press do with it? I was unable to find the story in a single newspaper, outside of Denver. I brought the full-page story clipped from the "Rocky Mountain News" to New York with me, and tried the big New York dailies, and could not get one of them to publish it.

I talked over the problem with my wife, and we agreed that something must be done to break this conspiracy of silence. I had trustworthy information to the effect that young Rockefeller was in charge of what was going on in Colorado, though he was vigorously denying it at this time, and continued to deny it until the Walsh commission published his letters and telegrams to his representatives in Denver. Evidently, therefore, Mr. Rockefeller was the shining mark at which we must aim. It happened that one of the speakers at the Carnegie Hall meeting had been Mrs. Laura G. Cannon, whose husband was an organizer for the United Mine Workers, and had been thrown into jail by the militia and kept there without warrant or charge for a considerable time. So we called on Mrs. Cannon to go with us to the offices of Mr. Rockefeller."

Upton Sinclair and "The Brass Check" are must reading for anyone who gives a darn about the truth of what happened in this country.

As long as there are men who love wealth more than the condition of their fellow man, and more than the law, there will always be a need for unions.


Steve
 
Yeah. By the late 70s Labor and the unions had put Britain among the highest unemployment rates and lowest productivity rates in Europe. Still can't figure out why the Brits elected Thatcher.

Steve.
 
"The following individuals died in the massacre and are listed on the Ludlow Monument:"

**********

I've been there.

They have an excavation of the pit where several died. The survivors of the State Malitia machine gun sweep of the striking miner tent colony were loaded on a nearby train and taken south to the state line where they walked. Left in the middle of nowhere, a long hike to the next town.

Ludlow was one of several strike breaking events in Colorado by the State Malitia but probably the most brutal. The Ludlow people had previously moved from company towns to the tent colony during the strike.
 
Yeah. By the late 70s Labor and the unions had put Britain among the highest unemployment rates and lowest productivity rates in Europe. Still can't figure out why the Brits elected Thatcher.

Steve.

Not saying your statement is true or false, just would like a source for it including statistics.

I have never found the British equivalent to the U.S. Statistical Abstract.


Steve
 
I've been there.

April 20th, my birthday.

http://archaeology.about.com/gi/dyn...=http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfphoto.html

cover.gif




482g3.jpg

During the battle at Ludlow, four women and ten children took refuge in this pit dug beneath a tent. All but two, Mary Petrucci and Alcarita Pedregone, suffocated when the tent above them was burned. The dead included Mary Petrucci's three children and Alcarita Pedregone's two children. This pit became infamous as the "Death Pit."



441g4.jpg

Procession for Louis Tikas' funeral, April 27, 1914, Trinidad.
Louis Tikas was the leader of the Greeks in the Ludlow Tent Colony. During the massacre, Tikas and two other miners were captured and at some point shot and killed by the militia. On April 20th, the day of the Massacre, the miners were celebrating Greek Easter


Sad.


Steve
 
Yeah. By the late 70s Labor and the unions had put Britain among the highest unemployment rates and lowest productivity rates in Europe. Still can't figure out why the Brits elected Thatcher.

Steve.


don't you kind of wonder (even a teeny little bit, anyways) if the Japanese trade practices (protectionism, dumping, etc) that also had a huge effect on us at the time, might have had something to do with it as well? IIRC, it was the Japanese shipbuilders that had the most to do with killing off the mainstay of the Brit manufacturing sector, not the labor that depended on it.....I may be wrong, and any Brits here can feel free to correct me, I'm going by what I've read of the demise of Brit automaking, motorcycle making, and shipbuilding industries, and not by actual experience of living through it real-time in the UK....
 
don't you kind of wonder (even a teeny little bit, anyways) if the Japanese trade practices (protectionism, dumping, etc) that also had a huge effect on us at the time, might have had something to do with it as well? IIRC, it was the Japanese shipbuilders that had the most to do with killing off the mainstay of the Brit manufacturing sector, not the labor that depended on it.....I may be wrong, and any Brits here can feel free to correct me, I'm going by what I've read of the demise of Brit automaking, motorcycle making, and shipbuilding industries, and not by actual experience of living through it real-time in the UK....

Even though I now reside in Australia, I am a Pom, but I think the demise of British industry had a lot to do with poor product rather than anything else.
There was a big problem with resting on our laurels, the management of the time had the idealogy that it is british made so it must be the best, so instead of developing new technology, they would give 40yr old designs a new paint job and call it a new model. During this time the 'jap crap' as it was known kept developing both in technology and quality whilst we stood still.
The unions of the late 70's didn't help, being very militant, but having said that, when thatcher came to power, it went the total opposite way. Trouble is there never seems to be any middle ground in these situations.
 
It's a good bit to muddle through but this seems to cover it.

http://personal.lse.ac.uk/pissarid/papers/UK_unemployment.pdf

Steve.

A quick glance and I can't find a source for the statistics. None of the graphs at the end cite any source and the text (I have very little time at 4:45 AM) doesn't seem to offer a source. It does deserve a longer look. Wish I could find UK government source for economic statistics. Any help?

Steve
 








 
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